How long to put up with a worker

[romexking]

When I bid a job, I have already decided how the job will be done. I meet with my J-man on the first day and lay the job out for him and tell him what I was thinking when I bid the job.

The idea that a Journeyman has complete control over how a project will be wired is completely retarded. What if we're doing a new house and I bid the job using Romex but the Journeyman decides that Flex is better?

I don't expect to tell a Journeyman how to pull wire or where to position his ladder, but I do expect him to wire the job according to my specifications.

And that is how it should be

 

[romexking]

If I am running a job then I will make all the day to day decisions that are required to run a crew and complete the job, my boss makes the financial decisions like pricing extras and such, but as far as how the job will be done, that is my call. If you don't like how I do things, get someone else to run the job, or do it yourself. JMHSO.

So I guess that you already know how to do everything the best way possible? Have you taken any foreman classes? Do you know how to properly man a project, when to add and when to release labor? Do you know all of the company's other manpower requirements? While you may know how to complete a project, "your" project may be a small piece of the overall company pie. A lead journeyman may be a very good electrician, however I suggest that in many cases the owner of a company may have a better idea on how to accomplish things more efficiently with less expense. Perhaps that experience is what led that person to open a shop.

Now if your boss abdicates his/her responsibility to you, and you do a great job, then he/she is very lucky to have a qualified person like you, but what if you don't do so well, when would they discover that, at the end of the job? At that time, it's too late to make any corrections to help you or to save the job and the company's reputation.

Is it reasonable to expect a foreman to check the work of his/her electricians to confirm that it is done properly and as layed out to them? I think everyone would agree that it is, then it is also resonable to expect that an owner/manager/supervisor will also check and layout work for the foreman as they deem necessary.

 

[360Youth]

So I guess that you already know how to do everything the best way possible?

There is no best way and I am by no means the best at what I do (although that should be what each of us strive to be...the "Go To" EC or the "Go To" worker within an outfit) but certain jobs I have been doing for a long time with lots of experience and learning from right ways and wrong ways and from smart people and not so smart people. I do not believe there is anything wrong with certain standards, especially if someone is going to have to answer for how the project goes.. When I work under people I thrive on doing what I am asked to do (We always enjoy fighting over who gets to be the helper and letting the other guy be crew leader :grin: ), but I also appreciate being given freedom and have learned to allow others the same.

Now if your boss abdicates his/her responsibility to you, and you do a great job,...

That is the case with us, as I have mentioned it is my license that we work under, but I still report all things to him.

... then he/she is very lucky to have a qualified person like you, .

That one is a bit more debatable. :grin:

I think everyone would agree that it is, then it is also resonable to expect that an owner/manager/supervisor will also check and layout work for the foreman as they deem necessary.

I fully expect him to.

 

[wireman71]

One telling point in your favor is the fact that you asked on this forum. To me that says a lot about you as a employer and makes me doubt the employee. I think everyone here needs more information about what is happening with your employee. I don't think a employee should ever be beligerent to the owner. Maybe a little angry but outright not giving you the time of day is wrong.

 

[iwire]

I am an employee.

The boss will tell me about the job, he will let me know if it is cable or pipe, any other 'major' decisions and any odd ball contract requirements.

After that I run the job, that was what I was hired for, the boss does not tell me which way to run the cables, or what size conduits etc.

Of course he could at any time tell me to do something a certain way, I work for him.

But.... he also knows I am not a drone, I was hired for my ability to run a job. If the boss comes out and tries to micro manage the job I have been assigned to it says a lot.

1) They are wasting money having two bosses for the job.

2) They do not trust me, that is a moral killer.

3) The boss is not doing what he should be doing ..... getting more work, starting jobs up and closing jobs out.

It always has to be a balancing act between the boss and the job foreman. As has been mentioned a lot has to do with how you say things.

 

[jrannis]

I have a worker that is 20 years older then me, it was all fine when i hired him but lately no respect, gets mad when i point out wrong doing, and one more thing he says its my job i make decisions and he also says he does not like babysiting, when you send your guy out to do a job do you let them make all decisions or you tell the how you want it done and they have to do it. Thanks for your help

Just tell him that its not a good fit and you like to be involved in YOUR jobs more than is going to work for him or more than he likes. Pay him off on the spot and tell him to have a good life.
BTW Dont be concerned at all about him being 20 years older than you.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

When I put a journeyman on a project, it is my job that he is completing for me. When he starts taking the risk, paying for material, paying taxes, paying payroll, completing the billing, financing the project for 60 days or so, then he can say it is his job. Until then it is stil my job. If a person can lead a project and complete it with little oversite, that is great, however there will always be oversite, that is my duty as a business owner and manager. If you don't like it, work for yourself!

If you're running the job as a business owner, fine. If, as a business owner, you assign that task to someone else, that person (we call him a general foreman) is now in charge of the job. That's management, not labor.

Management without freedom or authority is an illusion.

You are not paying for material, payroll, taxes or anything else for that matter, the customer and your labor is. Unless you're printing money that is... It's a shell game. They're your shells and it's your table, but the game is about balls and those aren't yours.

You're like the conductor who think's he's playing the symphony. Get over yourself, you're the Madame. Whether you exist or not the johns and the whores will still be there.

The tipoff in the OP was "babysitter." That's the key word that this guy is running a job without the tools or the authority to get the job done.

Let's take this example: What it you bid a job for 5000' of pvc under the deck, but you left your journeyman without oversite and he ordered and installed 5000' of IMC? Is there anyone at fault? Yes, the owner/manager.

For choosing a foreman that orders the wrong material.

Of course you cannot nitpick the little stuff, unless it is a quality issue, but leaving them with little or no oversite is a neglect of a manager's duties

If you cannot leave a GF with little or no oversight, you picked the wrong GF.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

When I bid a job, I have already decided how the job will be done. I meet with my J-man on the first day and lay the job out for him and tell him what I was thinking when I bid the job.

Well there's the problem. Your Jman is a Jman and not a General Foreman if you're laying out the job. So you expect to get work run by someone who is not competant enough to do it himself while you pocket the difference in salary.

I had an employer try this on me - after all was set to go I informed him the moment he walks off the site I become the GF and paid accordingly, or re-lay the job out to someone eles foolish enough to think this kind of arrangment could possibly lead to something good.

The idea that a Journeyman has complete control over how a project will be wired is completely retarded. What if we're doing a new house and I bid the job using Romex but the Journeyman decides that Flex is better?

What kind of General Foreman would make a decison like that?

I don't expect to tell a Journeyman how to pull wire or where to position his ladder, but I do expect him to wire the job according to my specifications.

Then you want a puppet. Not a foreman.

 

[amazing electric]

well the worker does good work except when he hung 3'x4' ct can on four led anchors then i told him that he needs to make it right and told him how i wanted done well then he says that it will pass inspection and he has done all the time but when i told him that i still wanted done my way he gets mad and tells me that he hates babysitting and that this is his job and that he has done it longer then I am alive. Maybe hanging a ct can on four 1" led anchor is normal practice Is it?

 

[Rewire]

I have sent a guy packing for just this same behavior,Bottom line is it is my signature on the paycheck and if I want it all pulled out and fliped over then that is what will happen I am buying time and that is what the employee is selling and as long as I do not complain about the amount of time a job is taking I can redo as much as I am willing to pay for.

 

[emahler]

If you're running the job as a business owner, fine. If, as a business owner, you assign that task to someone else, that person (we call him a general foreman) is now in charge of the job. That's management, not labor.

Management without freedom or authority is an illusion.

You are not paying for material, payroll, taxes or anything else for that matter, the customer and your labor is. Unless you're printing money that is... It's a shell game. They're your shells and it's your table, but the game is about balls and those aren't yours.

You're like the conductor who think's he's playing the symphony. Get over yourself, you're the Madame. Whether you exist or not the johns and the whores will still be there.

The tipoff in the OP was "babysitter." That's the key word that this guy is running a job without the tools or the authority to get the job done.



For choosing a foreman that orders the wrong material.



If you cannot leave a GF with little or no oversight, you picked the wrong GF.

so when i price a job based on $x material and $y labor.....i shouldn't tell my gf how i planned on doing it for that money?

and if my gf goes over budget, who's pocket does it come out of? not his...

i should give the job over to his discretion and judgement....then if he screws up it's my fault for trusting him?

what planet are you from?

 

[Fire Alarm]

You are not paying for material, payroll, taxes or anything else for that matter, the customer and your labor is. Unless you're printing money that is... It's a shell game. They're your shells and it's your table, but the game is about balls and those aren't yours.

Pardon me for asking, are you an Electrical Contractor?

 

[~Shado~]

I absolutly agree that the owner has ALL control of a job. My last employers (they were a partnership) would go over pretty much each job with me as to how they arrived at price for project. Materials, perhaps path form point A to B, etc... I wouldnt know the $ figure but you know what I mean. It was then my job to complete accordingly.
I dont consider running crews babysitting, just micro management. Our shop was split into 2 teams, the other forman and I would communicate with each other on whether or not we had room for extra help if not needed at that time for our jobs. Majority of the time it worked great, kept guys making a paycheck, helped speed job up, etc. Occasionally the extra help wasnt the best or as motivated, but it still worked for us.
The hardest thing for me to adjust to was when they would show up to WORK on the job and wanted me to tell them what to do just like the rest of the crew. I worked around it by giving them an area to complete and would leave them with a helper or so....then check back later to see if all was OK...:roll:

 

[Fire Alarm]

The hardest thing for me to adjust to was when they would show up to WORK on the job and wanted me to tell them what to do just like the rest of the crew. I worked around it by giving them an area to complete and would leave them with a helper or so....then check back later to see if all was OK...:roll:

How was the quality of their work? :grin:

 

[~Shado~]

Funny you asked.
Most jobs I would be in absolute awe, at the quality and speed they could 'get er done'.
Then other times, I would think to myself, hmmmm, OK, your the boss!
I have always been told that I was a craftsman, meticulous, etc. But when I would see the some of the stuff they could do, I would say to myself...'Man, I wanna be like them!'
No matter how good you are, there is always room for improvement!

This forum and you all have shown me that my license really dont mean squat. I am starting to call myself a Lite Journeyman. Field taught, no formal schooling. I am actually considering starting all over as an apprentice for someone, just so I can be all I can become. Problem is my wife and bills wont like it too much.

 

[amazing electric]

I think one of the problem with my guys that they all older then me . I ve never worked for an younger boss but your age makes people think that they can step over bosses authority.

 

[Fire Alarm]

Yes I am an electrical contractor, what makes you ask?

Because you made this comment: "You are not paying for material, payroll, taxes or anything else for that matter, the customer and your labor is"

The idea that an electrical contractor would say the he is not paying for material, payroll or "anything else" and therefor has no say as how things are done just seems somewhat odd to me.

 

[iwire]

Because you made this comment: "You are not paying for material, payroll, taxes or anything else for that matter, the customer and your labor is"

The idea that an electrical contractor would say the he is not paying for material, payroll or "anything else" and therefor has no say as how things are done just seems somewhat odd to me.

That was LawnGuyLandSparky that said that not amazing electric

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

well the worker does good work except when he hung 3'x4' ct can on four led anchors then i told him that he needs to make it right and told him how i wanted done well then he says that it will pass inspection and he has done all the time but when i told him that i still wanted done my way he gets mad and tells me that he hates babysitting and that this is his job and that he has done it longer then I am alive. Maybe hanging a ct can on four 1" led anchor is normal practice Is it?

If it will pass inspection, it's nothing to nitpick over. If you wanted it done your way, you should not have picked someone else to do it. How can you expect everything or anything to be done your way by someone else? The point is that it gets done and there are a million ways to get from point A to point Z. You can't expect someone else to take the exact same route you would just because they're your employee.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

so when i price a job based on $x material and $y labor.....i shouldn't tell my gf how i planned on doing it for that money?

90% of how you planned on doing it will be pretty obvious. If you've chosen the GC, you must have based that choice on something. Like his/her ability to run a job in a manner that consistent with your business practices. Which, by the way, are not so unique or different than any of the other 100,000 Electrical contractors out there, I assure you.

and if my gf goes over budget, who's pocket does it come out of? not his...

Who set the budget? Was it accurate or realistic to begin with? Did you bid on a loser? Is that his fault? Were there delays? Way to many variables.

The pocket the losses come out of is the same one the profits go into. That is the business of contracting.

i should give the job over to his discretion and judgement....then if he screws up it's my fault for trusting him?

If you give the job over to his discretion and judgement and it's a success I doubt you'd have a problem patting yourself on the back.

what planet are you from?