LawnGuyLandSparky
Senior Member
Fire Alarm said:
No I am not an electrical contractor.
How long to put up with a worker
- Thread starter amazing electric
- Start date
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No I am not an electrical contractor.
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
As for the question How long to hold on to an employee...Besides of times where there is WAY too much work to dump even a bad employee. I weigh the pluses and minuses when the minuses out weigh the pluses and after 3 strikes GOOD-BYE...
amazing electric said:
Dude, you gotta do what you gotta do. Tell your guys what they are doing right, and tell them what they are doing wrong. Its your nut, and if things go south the guys working for you won't be holding the bag, you will be, so don't sell yourself short, and if God forbid things do go south you will at least be able to say "I did it my way".
Try to find the happy medium that works for you - evey employee is going to be a little different to manage. Somedays you will learn, somedays you will teach. But its your company so you gotta do what works for you.
amazing electric
Member
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
That is true but if i am paying the guy and I am asking him to mount that ct can in the matter that if will not fall of the wall why are there hard feelings, plus the ispector wont stick his head in that ct can to check how its mounted, but if something goes wrong will they call me or the journeyman?
I don't use lead anchors myself, but are they really so awfull that they will cause the can to "fall off the wall"? Maybe you are making a mountain out of a molehill in this particular instance?amazing electric said:
If you expect to hang onto an experienced and capable worker you have to give them a little leeway to make their own decisions. Someone who knows what they're doing and are good at what they do will resent being micro-managed over such small details.
You have every right to command this guy to remove the lead anchors and use something different, but is it worth losing a capable employee? They are few and far between.
*edit*
You would be aghast to see what kinds of things (and indignities) I have had to put up with from employees.
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Fire Alarm
Banned
- Location
- I'm From California
iwire said:
Yeah, I just noticed I got them confused. Sorry.
LawnGuyLandSparky
Senior Member
amazing electric said:
Picture yourself getting the final on a job, and the inspector tells you that the 3' x 4' pullbox isn't adequately supported by the 4 5/8ths allthread you hung it on.
Was his installation of this CT cabinet really that precarious, or, was it just done in a manner you're not used to or familiar with?
From everything you've written on this matter thus far, I get the feeling that for you this all boils down to "I'm right because I'm the boss." What this translates to, for your foreman, is "You're wrong because I said so." And if that is the case, there's really no way your foreman can ever be right when the line between right and wrong is not based on code or mechanics or logic or common sense, but just your arbitrary feeling at the moment.
You could conceivably use that argument to tell your foreman the rip out the entire job and do it over. Assuming this is a concrete or masonary wall, there's no reason a simple fix (to make you feel better) wouldn't suffice. Use a 7/8 holesaw to pop 4 more holes in the back, hammerdrill 4 2" deep holes and pop in 4 double-expansion shields with 1& 1/4 fender washers.
Edit to add: I regard to the other issue, I am not endorsing or ignoring the situation where your employee has been disrespectful or insabordinate. If the guy is talking down to you or there is a serious breakdown in mutual respect, that is another problem in and of itself.
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hockeyoligist2
Senior Member
- Location
- close to greenville sc
Just IMHO it sounds like Micro management. I could be wrong? I don't mean to offend, OK?
My boss tries to troubleshoot things, over the phone, based on what he is being told by an operator. Usually it turns out opposite of what I have been instructed to do. I am fully capable of determining the problem and I do tend to get offended with the Micro management!
My boss tries to troubleshoot things, over the phone, based on what he is being told by an operator. Usually it turns out opposite of what I have been instructed to do. I am fully capable of determining the problem and I do tend to get offended with the Micro management!
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
wow....presumptuous and wrong...2 great attributes of a GF...
you feel that you, as a GF, should have total control...yet you are very quick to blame the owner...what gives?
if you actually bothered to read what I wrote, instead of just jumping to conclusions to disagree with me...you would have noticed this:
emahler said:
and not be so quick to point out your inability to use common sense and post something like this:
lawnguy said:
when you sit down tonight to watch tv...think about the fact that most contractors are not Forest Electric, or Unity Electric, or EJ Electric, or 5-Star, etc...they are small guys who are doing everything they can to build there business...your attitude is the reason that many shy off from growing...they are petrified of growing and having to rely on someone like yourself to make them money...especially when you've shown, time and time again, that should you fail, it's really the bosses fault...
good luck and good night...
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
That'a not true. Many dangerous installations pass inspection. It's up to the person who's name is on the permit to decide when the job is up to a certain set of standards and code ( it's the law).
I have worked for many companies in my time and I can honestly say that some of those companies didn't care what their people in the field did. Others had higher quality standards and if anyone wished to work there it was up to them to come up to those standards. It is the owner of the company that gets to decide what standards are set for the company. If an employee doesn't like this they are free to seek employment elsewhere.
The problem may have been in the way these standards were explained to the employee. I will admit that there are employers that don't have a lot of tact when comes to explaining things. :smile:
LawnGuyLandSparky
Senior Member
emahler said:
When presented with a what-if senerio with a predetermined outcome, I'm going to blame the owner unless there are indications otherwise. So you tell me, WHAT-IF a job goes down the tubes even though the work was done effeciently, and on time, and with the proposed materials? WHAT IF the company just underbid? The one with all the power gets all the blame. If you micromanage and deny a GF his authority, who are you to blame when he wasn't really all that in control? It seems you want the best of all worlds - assign a GF, micromanage the job, make jobsite decisions and THEN also get to use this GF as a wailing wall should something go wrong.
You cannot put blame on a person who doesn't have control, it's just that simple. If I'm running a job and I need 5 LESS people and I'm told I need to shelter 5 MORE people for 4 weeks because you just don't want to lose them, don't blame ME when the job goes 1600 manhours over.
I'd expect the execution of the work, based on the job schedule, and the materials and the manpower to be hashed out of course. I sure as hell would never expect the owner, or the PM, or the estimator instructing the GF on exactly on how to hang a CT cabinet.
Do you think the owners of those winning shops are arguing with GFs about how to properly secure a CT cabinet?
Do you think the aforementioned shops got to where they are because they micromanaged? Because they care about how a CT is hung? Did it ever occur to you that some shops don't grow not out of fear, but because the principle(s) just aren't that smart? Not good businessmen? Is that even a possibility in your mind? Not every electrician is capable of owning and operating a large business. In fact, many of them are completely incapable of even running a small business.
If you want to blame all failures on a subordinate, fine. That doesn't make you wrong, it just makes you typical.
LawnGuyLandSparky
Senior Member
growler said:
Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of background in regards to the OP. We don't know if this GF was with this company for 10 years, or 10 minutes. We don't know if there's a company handbook, we don't know what the acceptable practice is for hanging CT cabinets in that area.
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
I forgot to add arrogant to presumptuous and wrong...my point wasn't to micro manage...my point was if I bid the job planning on doing it a certain way to reach the desired result...i'm gonna tell you what I was planning...to not tell you, is a recipe for failure...now, if you know a better way to reach our objective, i'm all ears...but if you're way is 2 times longer and uses 50% more material than mine...who's fault is it? mine for giving you the reigns...or your's? don't read too much 'what if' into this question, that's not the point...it's an all things being equal, how honest are you to yourself, question...i fully expect you to not answer this honestly, don't worry...
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
you are used to dealing with managers, not owners, who are out to save their own hide...they will throw you under a bus in a minute...most small contractors (under 50 guys) realize that the buck stops with them. At the end of the day, it's their responsibility to do it right...and their fault if someone did it wrong.
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
unless there is something specific in the spec's for that project...
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
heck, if you ever read any posts by me, you know I agree with this...most guys don't grow because they've never learned how...but do not discount the feelings of worry over growing and getting a GF sent out who doesn't give a rats ass whether his company succeeds or fails, because "Get over yourself, you're the Madame. Whether you exist or not the johns and the whores will still be there."
whether you want to acknowledge it or not, small contractors put everything they own on the line everyday in order to build their business...and while their failure means nothing to you because "Whether you exist or not the johns and the whores will still be there", they may lose their house, their savings, their kids college funds, etc...all because they put their business in the hands of a GF who thought...
because at the end of the day the EC is paying for all that...he's taking the risks to find the work, man the work, pay the payroll, get the material (on his credit)...etc...etc...etc...and hope that the guy he trusted to run the work doesn't screw him because he needs some OT to have spending money for his vacation next month..
your line of thinking could be brought to the next level...you don't own your house, your boss does...heck, he writes your paychecks...you also don't own your car, or pay your electric bill or cable bill...i mean, if you lose your house, someone else will live in it and pay those bills...it's a preposterous presumption based on misinformation...
if you want to blame your failures on those above you, fine...that doesn't make you wrong, it just makes you typical.LawnGuyLandSparky said:
360Youth
Senior Member
- Location
- Newport, NC
Good grief there is too much crying in these posts sometimes. Someone needs to lock this thread and let's move on. PM each other and let it be.
............
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
amazing electric said:
Vertical tension on the anchor from a ceiling - No... (Weight max would be ~300 lbs each) In a un-trustable direction prone to failure IMO.
Shear tension on a wall, and I assume it was concrete or block wall? Yeah why not? 1/4"x 1" lag with a lead anchor and I would stand on it. 3/8"x1 1/2" and I would jump up and down on it! (Both would have max capacity of >800 lbs each)
IMHO - get back in your hole on this one...:grin: Put your gloves back on when it is something that matters.
FYI - I currently work for an old apprentice of mine. Occasionally he still is. While we are the same age roughly - I have an additional ten years experience in a much broader scope. He knows better than to criticize my work. The only problems we have is when he trys to flex his "I'm a big Buisiness Man" muscle/ego (like some of the previous posts) and comes close to doing the work himself again.
Local job market is filled with idiots, as all the good guys are taken, and paid/treated well. If the same in your area - you may find yourself replacing a guy who talks back to you for your own damn good sometimes - with 3 "Yes Men" you actually have to babysit and cost you much more money with 5x's the liability.
LawnGuyLandSparky
Senior Member
emahler said:
It would be my fault. EX: The plan was to lace the walls with MC cable, and the I decided to use GRC in the deck.
Now you're agreeing with me.
I trust the GF has the ability to read. The GF will have the specs, the contract, and every drawing and update available. (Except HVAC, which generally are never published until long after the project is completed.)
Emahler, like it or not, the position ANY contractor is in is merely a broker of labor and management services. Doesn't matter if he's got 2 employees or 2000. Whatever he risked, HE RISKED IT and he chose to. Nobody held a gun to your head. That worry is the price you paid to get in the game. If a contractor happens to be in a precarious position, I can certianly appreciate it, but that is not going to change what I do or how I feel one iota. Am I supposed to work or act any different because failure means your children stand to miss out on college or you might lose your home? Sorry - that BS ruse has been played way too often for tradesmen in the business any length of time to fall for.
Let's not forget that part & parcel to taking that risk is the rewards. You seem to focus more about the former yet fail to even mention the latter. Are you another one of those contractors who "loses his shirt on every job" I presume? If you're risking your house and children's college funds, how is that supposed to impact or affect me vice another contractor who has the backing of 20 venture capatilists?
I don't care how or why you got into this game. If you risked everything you own, thats YOUR business. It was your decision. Whether you entered the game or not, I still have a job. If you want employees to care more, you'd better give them something more to care about.
It's a nasty, dark truth to how this game is played. Employees work for a wage. While a contractor stands to benefit from 100% of the profit, employees do not. There is no way you'll every get an hourly employee to worry as much as you. You may be able to get them to pretend as though they do, but it is just an act.
Nobody, not a GF or a PM or a BA or a layout man or an apprentice wants to be connected with a job that went down in flames. There's nothing more demoralizing than knowing you're working on or with a loser. Everybody wants the job to go smoothly, and be profitable.
Well then this is where you and I are going to part company on a philosophical
basis. You don't create money, you siphon it. As a business owner, you are not the customer, YOU are NOT paying for payroll, benefits, material or overhead. Every penny of that comes from the actual customers, who are actually paying for the WORK, the warehousing, the secretary, the ads, the labor the material.... everything. The money just goes through your hands first before it reaches the next destination. Your risk is not a money printing press. Your risk is but a position within an economic cycle.
Is an electrician and electrician if there are no contractors? Yes. Is an electrical contractor a contractor if there are no electricians? No. We are the product being sold.
When people purchase homes, they often pay up to 5% to the real estate agents and brokers. Do you think houses could never be sold if real estate agents didn't exist?
It's not preposterous when you consider where you stand relative to the equation. I trade my labor and skill for a wage. It has value and worth. What you earn is the difference between what I'm worth and what you charge for it. You seem to be under the impression that the buck starts with you. You know it doesn't. A client pays you. Someone else or many others pay them. The cycle of dollars is a continuious economic circle, it's not a one-line equation that begins with your wallet and ends in mine.
I've never had the experience.
LawnGuyLandSparky
Senior Member
360Youth said:
SegDog
Member
- Location
- Philadelphia
bad, contentious relationships
bad, contentious relationships
Over years, I have been in a number of hostile working relationships, on different levels and as supervision. Being the boss does give you a leg-up on how these situations are settled.
Your employees should have, in writing, some idea of expectaions for their behavior and work. Disrespectful outbursts should not be tolerated. You must have a system of documenting all business, including employee information - good and bad. This doesn't have to get complicated. A number of people on this forum have espoused good advice. I just don't know enough about this particular case to give any.
2. Moron Rule - Never argue with a moron. Someone walking-by that doesn't know either of you may not be able to tell the difference.
SegDog
bad, contentious relationships
Over years, I have been in a number of hostile working relationships, on different levels and as supervision. Being the boss does give you a leg-up on how these situations are settled.
Your employees should have, in writing, some idea of expectaions for their behavior and work. Disrespectful outbursts should not be tolerated. You must have a system of documenting all business, including employee information - good and bad. This doesn't have to get complicated. A number of people on this forum have espoused good advice. I just don't know enough about this particular case to give any.
2. Moron Rule - Never argue with a moron. Someone walking-by that doesn't know either of you may not be able to tell the difference.
SegDog
- Status