How to test GFCI, 5- to 1- Protection

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FionaZuppa

FionaZuppa

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Location
AZ
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Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
per request, i have created yet another thread on this topic
references:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=178511

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=180638

in essence, is using the test button on the GFCI really a good test? UL suggests that using 5-p tester is not all encompassing, NEMA suggests the use of a 5-p tester with a load applied, others say only the GFCI test button should be used. but we know that AHJ's use these 5-p testers that cannot verify GFCI function on 2-wire installs.

i also find it silly to allow a 5-r GFCI to be a 1-r GFCI when no EGC is there, the use of plastic EGC blockout should be used to convert the 5-r GFCI into a 1-r GFCI because the application was to GFCI a non-GFCI 1-r (replace the 1-r) and protect any downstream outlets. 406.4(D)(2)(b)
use of a sticker is kinda useless, and, if there was no hazard to be had using 5-r GFCI w/o EGC then why does NEC call for a sticker??
 
FionaZuppa said:
per request, i have created yet another thread on this topic
references:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=178511

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=180638

in essence, is using the test button on the GFCI really a good test? UL suggests that using 5-p tester is not all encompassing, NEMA suggests the use of a 5-p tester with a load applied, others say only the GFCI test button should be used. but we know that AHJ's use these 5-p testers that cannot verify GFCI function on 2-wire installs.

i also find it silly to allow a 5-r GFCI to be a 1-r GFCI when no EGC is there, the use of plastic EGC blockout should be used to convert the 5-r GFCI into a 1-r GFCI because the application was to GFCI a non-GFCI 1-r (replace the 1-r) and protect any downstream outlets. 406.4(D)(2)(b)
use of a sticker is kinda useless, and, if there was no hazard to be had using 5-r GFCI w/o EGC then why does NEC call for a sticker??
Click to expand...

Can you do us all a favor and stop using the truncated NEMA designations for plugs and receptacles? 95% of us here have no idea what you are talking about when you mention 5- this and 1- that.

I predict you will get much better answers if you do.

Here is pretty much the deal.

Obviously, a properly grounded 3 prong receptacle is the best of the choices, but since two prong receptacles with no grounding conductors exist in structures by the millions with no easy way to provide an EGC, a compromise had to be made.

All the exceptions to the rules that require an EGC are compromises.

I will tell you how I test for GFCI protection, you can take it for what it's worth, but I have been doing this for decades.

First, I just simply push the test button and then test other receptacles with a solenoid tester, sometimes when I am lazy I just use a 'tick' tracer.

Since I have read that on a VERY rare occasion the test button doesn't open the circuit, I also will use an external tester to verify the power has been removed.

The only time I will use the button on an external tester is right at the GFCI receptacle, not one downstream.

Remember, the NEC is a MINIMUM set of standards. If you feel a different method of testing is better, by all means do it IN ADDITION to testing by the NEC rules. Also, realize that the plug in testers you are talking about are NOT meant for, nor are sufficient for, diagnostic testing.

Now, that being said, what means do YOU use for testing GFCI receptacles (or breakers) in the field?
 
K8MHZ said:
Can you do us all a favor and stop using the truncated NEMA designations for plugs and receptacles? 95% of us here have no idea what you are talking about when you mention 5- this and 1- that.

The only time I will use the button on an external tester is right at the GFCI receptacle, not one downstream.
Click to expand...
isnt NEMA the formal definitions of the std household receptacles you install everyday ?? what else do you call them, "2-prong", "3-prong", "3-prong w/ no EGC but has sticker" ??

if you try and test the GFCI as you stated and the GFCI has no EGC, your tester just says "oh crud, houston, we have a problem here" ? but yet there is technically no problem, right?

i test GFCI using button and by using a cheater for any 2-wire downstream recepts, but testing is not an electrician "issue", its the AHJ who comes along and says, "nope, my 5-15p tester does not green-light my GFCI test i have to do, it also says the EGC is missing, sorry, fail".

my argument is basic, if it has the EGC pin then EGC should be there. thus installing GFCI on 2-wire we should have ability to plug the EGC pin to make the std GFCI 5-15r into a 1-15r, etc.
 
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FionaZuppa said:
my argument is basic, if it has the EGC pin then EGC should be there. thus installing GFCI on 2-wire we should have ability to plug the EGC pin to make the std GFCI 5-15r into a 1-15r, etc.
Click to expand...

By the same token, we should also have the ability to plug off the EGC hole in a three prong TR receptacle and use it on a 2 wire circuit.

Both seem to be rational, until put into the real world.

What would you use to plug the EGC pin that would make it safer considering that people will try to pry it out and in some cases succeed, probably damaging the receptacle in the process?

How would you prevent people from simply using an adapter to plug a three prong plug into a (now) two prong receptacle?
 
not_this_crap_again.jpg
 
K8MHZ said:
What would you use to plug the EGC pin that would make it safer considering that people will try to pry it out and in some cases succeed, probably damaging the receptacle in the process?

How would you prevent people from simply using an adapter to plug a three prong plug into a (now) two prong receptacle?
Click to expand...

the cheater is of no concern, same hazard that already exists with all 2-wire and 1-15r's, etc.

the maker of the GFCI simply includes in the box two solid plastic barbed pins, so once inserted they cannot be removed, etc. its a very simple and effective solution.
 
FionaZuppa said:
the cheater is of no concern, same hazard that already exists with all 2-wire and 1-15r's, etc.

the maker of the GFCI simply includes in the box two solid plastic barbed pins, so once inserted they cannot be removed, etc. its a very simple and effective solution.
Click to expand...
Why would you expect that they would be installed?, and even it they were the user would just drill them out.
 
FionaZuppa said:
...
my argument is basic, if it has the EGC pin then EGC should be there. thus installing GFCI on 2-wire we should have ability to plug the EGC pin to make the std GFCI 5-15r into a 1-15r, etc.
Click to expand...
The code allows that installation. If you don't think it should, you have plenty of time to submit a PI to change the 2020 code. You will need a solid substantiation and the substantiation for this type of change usually needs a "body count".
 
FionaZuppa said:
the cheater is of no concern, same hazard that already exists with all 2-wire and 1-15r's, etc.

the maker of the GFCI simply includes in the box two solid plastic barbed pins, so once inserted they cannot be removed, etc. its a very simple and effective solution.
Click to expand...
And you do not allow downstream protected receptacles?
Or you just collect the unused pins from GFCIs you install with an EGC?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 
FionaZuppa said:
the cheater is of no concern, same hazard that already exists with all 2-wire and 1-15r's, etc.

the maker of the GFCI simply includes in the box two solid plastic barbed pins, so once inserted they cannot be removed, etc. its a very simple and effective solution.
Click to expand...

Look at it like this: people will start cutting off the EGC- and will argue its ok because its a GFCI anyways- until that appliance ends up being used on a grounded 3 wire none GFCI outlet.

Yes I know this can be disputed "its the person's fault, we can't worry about what they might do, ect, ect" but in the real world I've seen tons of EGCs cut off for extension cords and 2 wire outlets. Having the GFCI option with the ground pin available prevents that.
 
mbrooke said:
:roll::roll:

Let him speak, he has his own thread now :thumbsup::)
Click to expand...

Ok forum mom. :roll::roll:

It's the same nonsensical topic as it was in the other thread, starting a new one about the same subject matter does not change the fact that it is still nonsense.
 
peter d said:
Ok forum mom. :roll::roll:

It's the same nonsensical topic as it was in the other thread, starting a new one about the same subject matter does not change the fact that it is still nonsense.
Click to expand...

But it doesn't change the topic of any existing thread :thumbsup: As for the topic itself, we all have to start somewhere. I am sure Fiona is still learning.
 
K8MHZ said:
By the same token, we should also have the ability to plug off the EGC hole in a three prong TR receptacle and use it on a 2 wire circuit.

Both seem to be rational, until put into the real world.

What would you use to plug the EGC pin that would make it safer considering that people will try to pry it out and in some cases succeed, probably damaging the receptacle in the process?

How would you prevent people from simply using an adapter to plug a three prong plug into a (now) two prong receptacle?
Click to expand...

wow, you are totally missing it.

1) not by same token, they make 1- receptacles, they do not make 1- GFCI's.
2) a plastic pin that is about same exact size of the EGC hole, is barbed so it cannot be removed, and the face of it sits flush with the face of the receptacle, etc.
3) using 5- to 1- cheater is outside NEC, and, since the user has 1-r now they are likely using cheaters already. have you ever seen folks file down the polarizer to fit into a 1-15r non-polarized ??? is that dangerous ???
4) blocking out the EGC on a 2-wire 5-r is safer than a 5-r that has missing EGC, etc.
5) from a code view, all new 5-r's must have EGC, if a 1-r is being replaced with whatever, that whatever should remain a 1-r.

peter d said:
Ok forum mom. :roll::roll:

It's the same nonsensical topic as it was in the other thread, starting a new one about the same subject matter does not change the fact that it is still nonsense.
Click to expand...
you definitely a shoot-1st & ask Q's later type?
i attempted to stay within the existing threads, i was told to open my own thread. if thats an issue then take it to the MOD's ;)


mbrooke said:
Look at it like this: people will start cutting off the EGC- and will argue its ok because its a GFCI anyways- until that appliance ends up being used on a grounded 3 wire none GFCI outlet.

Yes I know this can be disputed "its the person's fault, we can't worry about what they might do, ect, ect" but in the real world I've seen tons of EGCs cut off for extension cords and 2 wire outlets. Having the GFCI option with the ground pin available prevents that.
Click to expand...
but if you think a non-EGC 5- is better then why does NEC require a silly sticker ?? in this context we are discussing installing a 5- GFCI on 2-wire (replacing std 1- for a 5- GFCI, etc)
 
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