How to test GFCI, 5- to 1- Protection

[user 100]

the cheater is of no concern, same hazard that already exists with all 2-wire and 1-15r's, etc.

the maker of the GFCI simply includes in the box two solid plastic barbed pins, so once inserted they cannot be removed, etc. its a very simple and effective solution.

wow, you are totally missing it.

1) not by same token, they make 1- receptacles, they do not make 1- GFCI's.
2) a plastic pin that is about same exact size of the EGC hole, is barbed so it cannot be removed, and the face of it sits flush with the face of the receptacle, etc.
3) using 5- to 1- cheater is outside NEC, and, since the user has 1-r now they are likely using cheaters already. have you ever seen folks file down the polarizer to fit into a 1-15r non-polarized ??? is that dangerous ???
4) blocking out the EGC on a 2-wire 5-r is safer than a 5-r that has missing EGC, etc.
5) from a code view, all new 5-r's must have EGC, if a 1-r is being replaced with whatever, that whatever should remain a 1-r.


you definitely a shoot-1st & ask Q's later type?
i attempted to stay within the existing threads, i was told to open my own thread. if thats an issue then take it to the MOD's



but if you think a non-EGC 5- is better then why does NEC require a silly sticker ?? in this context we are discussing installing a 5- GFCI on 2-wire (replacing std 1- for a 5- GFCI, etc)

Lets back up-
Explain exactly why only the current gfci 406 allowance is dangerous or should be altered....

What harm ultimately is done by gfci protecting some 5-15 recs on a 2w ckt in an old house, just in case someone happens to plug in a 3 prong plug.....

But before you respond, remember these facts:

*GFCI does not require an EGC to function

*The proposed 1-15 GFCI product can be very easily circumvented- there seems to be no reasonable need for this other than a need for posterity/just because type of rule.

*The NEC allows the 406 GFCI allowance and it has likely been studied to death by people that live and breath this stuff.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

....

but if you think a non-EGC 5- is better then why does NEC require a silly sticker ?? in this context we are discussing installing a 5- GFCI on 2-wire (replacing std 1- for a 5- GFCI, etc)

I have no idea of what a non-EGC 5- is or a std 1- is or a 5-GFCI, or a 5- 1- cheater is. Those terms have no meaning to me.

As far as the code required sticker, it is required because of the rule in 250.114.

 

[iwire]

I have no idea of what a non-EGC 5- is or a std 1- is or a 5-GFCI, or a 5- 1- cheater is. Those terms have no meaning to me..

You would if he presented them correctly like NEMA 5-15 or NEMA 1-15.

 

[iwire]

per request, i have created yet another thread on this topic

Congratulations, feel good that you are not taking over someone's thread.


Now I have a question for you.

When was the last time you tested all the GFCIs in your home?

 

[FionaZuppa]

You would if he presented them correctly like NEMA 5-15 or NEMA 1-15.

well, you almost got it, you missing the "R" or "P" after those
do i really need to type it out
will you ever see something other in household??
i am hoping everyone knows that these recepts are NEMA types, and know what the types are.

do i test my own GFI's, yep, every 6mo for both GFCI 5-15's and GFCI OCPD's and AFCI OCPD's. i had an AFCI just hum away (no trip) and blow smoke, so its best everyone actually tests them !!


@don - what is a non-EGC 5- you ask, thats a GFCI installed on 2-wire, hence a recept that has no EGC wire, but since its a GFCI its a 5- (wait, i need to say, its a NEMA 5-15R).

 

[mbrooke]

but if you think a non-EGC 5- is better then why does NEC require a silly sticker ?? in this context we are discussing installing a 5- GFCI on 2-wire (replacing std 1- for a 5- GFCI, etc)

Id guess surge protection, 3 prong testers, ESD personal wrists and systems:


http://incompliancemag.com/article/...e-basic-esd-control-procedures-and-materials/


Also, it has been argued on this forum that the NEC doesn't actually want you plugging in certain stuff without an EGC even when GFCI protected.

 

[mbrooke]

do i test my own GFI's, yep, every 6mo for both GFCI 5-15's and GFCI OCPD's and AFCI OCPD's. i had an AFCI just hum away (no trip) and blow smoke, so its best everyone actually tests them !!

Not to derail- but I just want to make sure you do not have one of these:



http://www.aohomeinspection.com/pdf/AFCI_Recall.pdf


If not, carry on

 

[iwire]

:roll::roll:Let him speak,

Nobody is stopping Fiona from posting their views. But 480 is also allowed to post his view. That is how a forum works, it is not a blog, it is a forum.

 

[iwire]

do i really need to type it out

No, you can post in any gibberish all you want.

But at least three people with a ton of experience have mentioned to you it is not clear.

Do you wish to be understood or not?

do i test my own GFI's, yep, every 6mo for both GFCI 5-15's and GFCI OCPD's and AFCI OCPD's. i had an AFCI just hum away (no trip) and blow smoke, so its best everyone actually tests them !!

So you expose you family to electrical dangers. GFCIs and AFCIs are to be tested monthly!!!!!

I cant believe you can sleep at night. :lol:

@don - what is a non-EGC 5- you ask, thats a GFCI installed on 2-wire, hence a recept that has no EGC wire, but since its a GFCI its a 5- (wait, i need to say, its a NEMA 5-15R).

Again, you can post using whatever terms you want, but if you want your message understood that may not be the best choice.

 

[Tony S]

per request, i have created yet another thread on this topic
references:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=178511

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=180638

in essence, is using the test button on the GFCI really a good test? UL suggests that using 5-p tester is not all encompassing, NEMA suggests the use of a 5-p tester with a load applied, others say only the GFCI test button should be used. but we know that AHJ's use these 5-p testers that cannot verify GFCI function on 2-wire installs.

i also find it silly to allow a 5-r GFCI to be a 1-r GFCI when no EGC is there, the use of plastic EGC blockout should be used to convert the 5-r GFCI into a 1-r GFCI because the application was to GFCI a non-GFCI 1-r (replace the 1-r) and protect any downstream outlets. 406.4(D)(2)(b)
use of a sticker is kinda useless, and, if there was no hazard to be had using 5-r GFCI w/o EGC then why does NEC call for a sticker??

 

[romex jockey]

I'd like to throw a few thoughts out here.....

1st would be our GFCI failure rate. I'm told we're somewhere in the 40% range, but can't substantiate it. I'm also under the impression the lock out and/or self testing features were born of this phenomenon

2nd would be protection downstream. I'm too lazy to reference back through my collection of NEC's , but i believe having no ecg has, in the past, resulted in much CMP ado

What are this groups take on this?

~RJ~

 

[iwire]

I'd like to throw a few thoughts out here.....

1st would be our GFCI failure rate. I'm told we're somewhere in the 40% range, but can't substantiate it. I'm also under the impression the lock out and/or self testing features were born of this phenomenon

I think you are pretty close, I don't remember the exact number but it was very high.

2nd would be protection downstream. I'm too lazy to reference back through my collection of NEC's , but i believe having no ecg has, in the past, resulted in much CMP ado

I am not following you here, ado about what? Homes built before EGCs were required?

 

[FionaZuppa]

No, you can post in any gibberish all you want.
But at least three people with a ton of experience have mentioned to you it is not clear.
Do you wish to be understood or not?
So you expose you family to electrical dangers. GFCIs and AFCIs are to be tested monthly!!!!!
I cant believe you can sleep at night. :lol:
Again, you can post using whatever terms you want, but if you want your message understood that may not be the best choice.

i already explained what a 1- and a 5- are. are you saying that the well experienced folks dont know what 1- and 5- NEMA recepts are ?? and at worst, since i explained 1- and 5- in this thread do we need to keep discussing this shorthand?

can you pull out the testing verbiage that accompanies GFCI's or AFCI's, lets take a look at the verbiage. within law realm, the instructions give a recommendation for monthly testing, thats about it.

so if you take the instructions as a literal "must", then please explain the hazard you may be exposed to if you do not follow the "must" instructions? if there is a hazard then NEC should account for it, right ??

and the square-D link posted for AFCI, nope, mine is all Eaton. pressed that wonderful "test" button and the thing nearly melted, i cut main power before it cooked all the way.

 

[wwhitney]

i already explained what a 1- and a 5- are. are you saying that the well experienced folks dont know what 1- and 5- NEMA recepts are ?? and at worst, since i explained 1- and 5- in this thread do we need to keep discussing this shorthand?

The problem with using a non-standard shorthand is that someone skimming the thread, or just looking at the latest posts, may not understand your shorthand. So in effect you are limiting your audience to only those who take the time to read the whole thread from the beginning. Is that your desire? Just type out NEMA 5-15R, at least for the first usage in each post.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[romex jockey]

Yes Iwire

~RJ~

 

[JFletcher]

Congratulations, feel good that you are not taking over someone's thread.


Now I have a question for you.

When was the last time you tested all the GFCIs in your home?

Last month. There is one in the carport. This house is full of two wire NM, two prong (NEMA 1-15) receptacles, and cheater plugs... and an original FPE Stab Lok panel. Oh, the horror of the 1950s... :roll:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

New GFCIs self test far more than the monthly recommendations that no one ever followed (I admit, it had been about 4 months since I tested that receptacle, tho I test it every time I use it; Ive been bitten from tools plugged into the old, illegal 3 prong w/no ground that was there... force of habit now). and yes, there is a section that says you cannot plug in x, y and z w/o an EGC present. Right. Im sure Lowes or HD will not install a washing machine or refrigerator on a two prong outlet, just as Im sure they wont test a 3 prong to make sure it is really grounded. From experience, a 3 prong with no ground is far more dangerous than a cheater plug or a 1-15 receptacle. GFCI, ground or not, is the best we have right now, barring double insulated tools (which, imho, would be safer than anything else - why no plastic washing machines or refrigerators that use 2 prong plugs? making plastic look like stainless steel too expensive? no market?)

 

[don_resqcapt19]

You would if he presented them correctly like NEMA 5-15 or NEMA 1-15.

Maybe, but probably not.

 

[480sparky]

i already explained what a 1- and a 5- are..........

The idea here is to foster communication. Communication is a 2-way street, and using your own personal definitions doesn't accomplish that. If you have to actually define what 1- and 5- are, then communication has failed.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

i already explained what a 1- and a 5- are. are you saying that the well experienced folks dont know what 1- and 5- NEMA recepts are ?? and at worst, since i explained 1- and 5- in this thread do we need to keep discussing this shorthand?

...

You can post what ever you want, but I don't pay much attention to posts like that....they still make ZERO sense to me.

 

[FionaZuppa]

I think you are pretty close, I don't remember the exact number but it was very high.

the articles in MH mojonewsarchive indicate that in FL, due to lightning, GFCI failure rate was around 57% at one point !!

The idea here is to foster communication. Communication is a 2-way street, and using your own personal definitions doesn't accomplish that. If you have to actually define what 1- and 5- are, then communication has failed.

i didnt make it up. shouldnt every electrician know what a 1- and 5- receptacle is. all (ALL) of the other descriptions, other than "NEMA 5-" or "NEMA 1-", are made-up descriptions, such as "grounding" and "non-grounding" and "with EGC" and "without EGC".

and for clarity, the -15 or -20 are just types of 1- or 5-, etc. not really hard to understand. somehow i strike a chord on fundamentals?