Hurry we need a price, when? "Tomorrow 2pm" you've got to be kidding?

[Mule]

If nothing else, Mule, use what you do know... T&M. Tell 'em point blank there's no way, given the situation, it's possible to even speculate on a price, and you'll only agree to T&M terms unless they provide the documentation needed for a firm price.

I doubt that a board of directors would ever approve a T/M job......I'll just stick to my last statement.....Dont have enough time ....let the other EC run off at the mouth and shoot his gun...If they fall for it? oh well....If they want a price from me, they will have to do it on my terms......and for now, there's no reason to waste my time on it, not knowing all of the parameters....

Thanks guys, just needed some support I guess......

 

[220/221]

"Fair" is a subjective word.

One of my first contracting jobs after I started this business was one of those where I had to move fast.

I guessed really high and got the job.

I thought that contracting was going to be a sweet racket

My guess is that, even if you throw out a number that you think is way too high, it will be in the ballpark. Spend no more than an hour on it. Figure the service at 15K, the panels at 5k and the branches at 500 to 1000 each. If those numbers feel to low, plug in something that fits.

They need numbers to plug in so they can get the ball rolling. Don't waste time calling on numbers for equipment, guess reeeeally high.

 

[Mule]

"Fair" is a subjective word.

One of my first contracting jobs after I started this business was one of those where I had to move fast.

I guessed really high and got the job.

I thought that contracting was going to be a sweet racket

My guess is that, even if you throw out a number that you think is way too high, it will be in the ballpark. Spend no more than an hour on it. Figure the service at 15K, the panels at 5k and the branches at 500 to 1000 each. If those numbers feel to low, plug in something that fits.

They need numbers to plug in so they can get the ball rolling. Don't waste time calling on numbers for equipment, guess reeeeally high.

3am icy hot routine lately.............dang it...

Sorry I cant function like that.....when I say something, it should be as accurate as it can be with my name on it. Id rather not get the job over being truthfull than to get it over being a gouge, or my luck, being under and hurt myself....just dont have eonugh time, and if he cant respect that, oh well. My luck would be, if I a guessed, Id be either WAY low, or WAY high.......Then there would be someone on the board that was considering me for some other job, and he'd think, well that guy isnt trust worthy, and I already got one lady out of whole years work that thinks that.......

My hip shot answer would be $20,000-$25,000, 2 guys 12 days at $100/hr= $9600, plus $10,000 parts, with mark up.....but I never could hit a sqirrel from the hip with a 22cal, only a 20 guage...then you wind up with shot in your dinner....and that would be ok, if you were hungry enough, and need to be lucky, but Im not..

and the more I think about it....12 days, might not be enough...........................

 

[bbaumer]

How do you know that the other EC isn't going through exactly what you are now and ready to let YOU have the job?

Lots of deals are done with less time than one day to ballpark a figure.

Is it ideal? Heck no. Is it better than no chance at all?

Should you be grateful to have the opportunity in the first place?

 

[jrannis]

You know the gear is $3,500, pipe and wire for a commercial kitchen will be around $2,500.
POCO fees unknown at this time and to be paid by client.
Misc service materials. $3,000?
Two guys two weeks. Cost $4,000 to 5,000?

Total "cost" $15,000.

Do you really think you can get hurt giving them a budget price of $25,000?

 

[iwire]

Total "cost" $15,000.

Do you really think you can get hurt giving them a budget price of $25,000?

I bet he thinks that is 'gouging' the customer.

 

[growler]

You know, thinking about this, if he already secured the new space and din't think of this, this could be a disaster waiting to happen.

Without looking at both places, he could be upwards of 50K pretty quick.

I actually agree with Dink on this one. Setting up a commercial kitchen can be much more involved than it would first appear.

On half the jobs that I have looked at that are similar to this one they haven't even considered much of the work that will need to be done.

The structure it's self is very important, there will be much plumbing for water, drain and gas lines ( very strict plumbing codes for kitchen, lots of concrete cutting and demolition). Even the bathrooms for employees have to be up to code and meet ADA requirements ( not to mention exterior ramps and lighting). Then there is the emergency and exit lighting? How many walls have to be taken down and what about the ceiling in the cooking area and lighting. Then there is the exhaust system. Are the condensers for cooler going on the roof or out back? Are you going to surface mount or are they going to gut this place so circuits can be run in the walls.

That disaster thing can easily happen, Who is going to run the job, you can't just throw a bunch of subs in there and hope for the best. At some point they will have to plan this thing and it may as well be at the beginning.

This is not advice but I would look at this thing very closely before attempting to give a firm bid.

 

[JohnME]

You could go in at whatever # you wanted just make it very very clear in your clarifications what you will and will not be doing. In the clarifications indicate that any additional work will be done on a T&M basis. Provide another sheet that lists your T & M rates.

What about the fire alarm?

There are too many unknowns but at the same time I wouldnt let it get away. Just clarify the hell out of what your bidding on and you cant go wrong.

 

[480sparky]

I bet he thinks that is 'gouging' the customer.

I would call it CYA.

A couple more things have come to mind: First, their new location will need to be built to current codes, and not just electrical. Maybe their old location is grandfathered in, and more money needs to be allocated to bringing everything up to current standards in the new place. Things like the ansul system, hoods, etc.

Another thought is, if you have limited time for the job, so does everyone else. While you've got your crew in there working feverishly, so does everyone else. "Too many cooks spoil the soup", the old adage goes. And I've been on jobs where there's so many trades banging into each other and climbing over each other that you just can't get anything done.

I well recall one restaurant in just such a position. It was friday, and they wanted to open the next day. In my 12 hours there, I got an exit light installed and about 15' of wiremold started at the waitress station. Not productive at all.

One possible solution: Work nights.

 

[Sparky555]

One possible solution: Work nights.

You're up at 3am anyway. Pack a few IcyHots and get to work.

 

[Fulthrotl]

I well recall one restaurant in just such a position. It was friday, and they wanted to open the next day. In my 12 hours there, I got an exit light installed and about 15' of wiremold started at the waitress station. Not productive at all.One possible solution: Work nights.

'zactly.... and it *will* be like that.... the only thing that WON'T be in that
kitchen will be a 12 year old on a pogo stick.

that's why a page or so back, i said $41k.

30 drops at 1k each
6k for the service
5k for putting up with them.

fire alarms, equipment rewires, permits, service upgrade to 3 phase?
extra. market pricing.

buddy and i went to give a number for a duck plant. this is a slaughterhouse
for ducks. they are gonna move it, and it sounds like this deal, only bigger.
90,000 sq ft, three duck lines, chillers hydraulic conveyors, tons of controls.

we looked at it, the hair on the back of our necks stood up, and we said,
based on what we know, $450-$500k, and nothing in writing until we do a
feasabilty study, and that will be $15k, payable before work commences.

the general said, not a problem, his line item for electrical needs to be under
$600k, so we are fine.

will it happen? dunno, but it took 15 minutes to clean the duck poop off
my shoes after the job walk. supposed to be a 3 month job.

i'll do it, but if i gotta wade thru duck guts for 3 months, i want $100k
clear for it. so does my buddy. the rest is for materials.

he didn't want it, and neither did i, even as slow as things are. the pricing
reflects that.

 

[weressl]

Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine......

 

[charlietuna]

I would consider that the other contractor is in the same boat as you -- his price(if he gives them one?) is gonna be high to cover his butt! There are too many variables that these people can get raked over the coals on and they need to be educated. Just consider what an engineered fire alarm system could cost including hoods and kitchen equipment? Wwhere you might be able to run it past the local inspection department explaining this is a "none profit" job and get their approval where they will work with you throughout the job? He will no doubt have to exclude certain systems from his bid. Many additional problems requiring more costs are certain to arrise, especially with the fast pace this all has to take place! This has the potential to get you other work within the community from none profit organizations. Give them the facts(warnings) and present them a very competative labor rate to do this job T&M..
I used to do pro bono work for a none profit organizations(i could afford it) and it got me some real good clients that i made my money back ten ford!!!
Besides--Muley, you are getting up in age and just might be on the other side of the food line someday......................

 

[gardiner]

This type of situations seems to happen to me on a very regualr bases, as a result I go in very high to keep myself safe then add this at the end of the bid

"Further savings may be achieved by further reviewing the requirements for the distribution and related equipment however, rather than make assumptions that may be contrary to the design intent and client?s requirements, we believe that this should be carried out in consultation between Haworth and the Architect and Engineers."

Its amazing how many times this works, and more amazing is how many times I get to keep very close to the high price.

 

[Mule]

Muley, you are getting up in age and just might be on the other side of the food line someday......................

Hey now.....that aint funny....:grin:

I gave him a prelim estimate of $22.5 10k in parts (included $1500 in contingency parts) and 12,5k labor (120hr's/$100hr) plus inspection fees and trip charges. Stated that is was only for budgetary consideration only and was not a bid. Then stated on the estimate that a accurate and itemized bid could be assembled upon his request with proper time consideration.

Took it to him this morning on the way to our jobsite, and his body language told me it was alot of money to him....But my attitude is... we are a small shop, and if they are going to tie us up on one job for 3 weeks, its has to pay well, because that's three weeks of small job phone calls that I'll have to turn down due to our backlog. So we'll see, Just thought I'd try to give him what he wanted and also protect myself................:smile:

 

[charlietuna]

Sounds too low to me -- this type of work due to the time frame will cause a lot of wasted time --make sure they realize this is only a budget price!!!

PS: It might not be your age that causes you to be on the wrong side of the food line!!!

 

[Mule]

Sounds too low to me -- this type of work due to the time frame will cause a lot of wasted time --make sure they realize this is only a budget price!!!

PS: It might not be your age that causes you to be on the wrong side of the food line!!!

Ha!.My predictions are quite entertaining...Seems like the MONEY is the biggest contraversy on this forum!!! which is far from its purpose.... .. Yes, its only a budget price.........:grin:

 

[Dnkldorf]

...Seems like the MONEY is the biggest contraversy on this forum!!!

That only comes from the 3 or 4 "know-it-alls".

Some of us really don't care how much you make, just as long as you make it ethically, and do it safely.

 

[wireguru]

i'll do it, but if i gotta wade thru duck guts for 3 months, i want $100k
clear for it. so does my buddy. the rest is for materials.

he didn't want it, and neither did i, even as slow as things are. the pricing
reflects that.

What do they make out of ducks? (besides tape)

 

[Mule]

That only comes from the 3 or 4 "know-it-alls".

Some of us really don't care how much you make, just as long as you make it ethically, and do it safely.

Actually it always comes from someone telling me Im too low........Guess I could have no response, when someone tells me that, would you feel better then?

Come on dude......Its always someone telling me Im too cheap.....Am I wrong?

If you dont want me to stand up, dont kick me down...its that simple...

Do I tell you your too high? Nope