I dont see how.

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Re: I dont see how.

Morning Bob,
Originally posted by iwire:
We also work jobs that have 5 to 1 ratios, thats five journeymen to one apprentice. :eek:
now that's tough. :eek:

Roger
 
Re: I dont see how.

Only if alkl areas were like rogers and not like jims :) From what's said here and from what I see daily, thank god I only have to inspect them (another way not to get rich on residential :) )
Every day I see two predominate themes:(a) Julio
pulls up in his Falcon van, gets out his ladder, cord and drill, romex..yellow romex goes to "X", orange to "D", "journeyman" will be by later OR (b) cousins buddy who works at factory will be by after work and do the wiring (no real overhead + small items are scarfed from factory job). You, on the other hand, have and pay for knowledgable folks, have vans, insurance, etc.
Any contractor who can survive on residential has my respect. Only advantage he has is he seldom gets a red tag.
 
Re: I dont see how.

Was a great living doing homes here 15 years ago.Tampa could care less if you have any card holders.Master pulls permit and needs never see the job
And you can bet the guy doing 2,000 sees few if any :mad: :mad: :mad:

All Florida wants is a person to go after if something goes wrong.

[ August 28, 2005, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by cselectric:
A home such as that could easily be done for $4500.00. Hire some "installers" (read: rope slinging monkeys.) and pay them piece work, so much per opening. Hire one guy that knows his stuff to hang services and make sure the monkeys don't screw up too badly.
I am not terribly concerned with speed, more with getting the job done correctly the first time, which has the side effect of speed.

For the record, I am now a piece-working "rope slinging monkey", and work no differently than I did when it was exclusively hourly. If you put in a day's work, for a day's wage, you can make around $20/hr without breaking a sweat. If you want to make $24/hr, you're either going to have to be very smart or very fast, and run.

In the end, you're basically paid what you're worth. There's no real cheating the system. A green apprentice coming off the street can expect to make no more than $8 on the system. A 10-year vet will have to earn his keep.

I guess my point is, there are many niches in our industry. Mass-volume tract-housing is different. That doesn't make it evil, or corrupting our industry, or whatever.

Is the guy flipping burgers at McDonald's destroying the industry for the highly paid chef at the five-star restaurant? Very doubtful. They operate independently of each other, and barely know the other exists. They play to completely different markets.

They both serve food, and that's where the similarity ends.

The same goes for custom homes, commercial, and tract homes. Just because we dance to different music, doesn't mean we deserve disdain.

An industrial guy just asked a question that I found easy. Does that make him stupid? No. Just experienced to a different end.
 
Re: I dont see how.

Dude....George, run, run now and find yourself a company that does not wire one and two family dwellings. The margins are to tight.

Find a company that does large commercial, industrial, retail work and earn more for less labor.

A guy like you would be running work and while that brings it's own problems you will not have to work by the piece.
 
Re: I dont see how.

Smartest thing i ever did was get away from residential work.Commercial is far easier.No one making you run to get done because they only bid 67 hours to rough this house.I was forced out of residential unless i wanted to run like a monkey for $14 an hour,no thanks.Free bananas !!!!! hmmm
 
Re: I dont see how.

I am finding some of this stuff quite amusing. First, I made me some major big bucks with wiring a track of townhouses, using 1 other j-man and 2 helpers. Second , I work solo now and wire maybe 10 houses a year. I fit service in between. I am not going to reveal my annual income on the net, but suffice to say I live in a very nice area, stay in front of my bills, paid cash for last years new van, paid cash for my wife's minivan. Can't afford the boat of my dreams. Residential work is not allways so terrible. I used to do nothing but commercial during the 1980's decade. It was good also, but I am clearing more this way.
I personally, do not love it when I run into snobs regarding residential vs commercial/industrial.
 
Re: I dont see how.

macmikeman before you label me as a snob remember that my opinion is based on being an employee of various companies not as an owner.

Do your employees pay cash for their cars?

You as the owner are the one taking the risks as such you deserve a bigger slice of the pie. :)

Bob
 
Re: I dont see how.

I'm also a little puzzled. I work strictly residential, mainly remodels and service upgrades on old houses, with some service work thrown in every now and then. I make a good living.

Maybe things are different elsewhere, but I don't see how residential work is nothing but long hours for little pay. It's been a good niche for me.
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by iwire:

I am not being a snob I am stating a fact that in my area the majority of electricians that work for commercial electrical companies make more and get better benefits than electricians working for residential electrical companies.
Bob, as you know your area is my area too, and I agree with you. I will point out that there are a few companies that do strictly residential new work that pay well and have good benefits, but they are the exception and not the rule. And of course you have to hustle. But yes, for the most part, working for a small company is simply not sufficient to make a decent living in expensive New England.

Now, did I mention I am trying to get out of doing residential to work for one of those large companies with better pay and benefits? :D
 
Re: I dont see how.

Sorry if it seems like I'm picking on Jim's post, but I have some comments:

Originally posted by jimwalker:
The trick to residential is get large fast.

I think the trick to any business, is to be a smart business man. (of which, IMO alot of tract home contractors are not)

The owner of small companies need to make there living from maybe 4 or 5 employies.

I only need to make a living off of One man, myself. Hiring more employees, doesn't necessarily mean more income for the business owner.

They get no price breaks on material and just manage to stay open.

I can tell you right now, that we get price breaks on just about everything. And I know for a fact that we buy alot of materials for less than most of the local 'tract home' companies.

When a company wires 2,000 homes a year things change fast.
Start with buying power,pallets of romex,panels,box's,etc.


Buying power comes not only with quantity, but with ability to pay thier bills. After the ability to pay their bills is established, comes their credit history. ie. do they pay their bills.

There savings on material are easily 5%to 10%.

I don't know that this is 100% true also. They might get a 5-10% break on certain items, and they might be getting slammed 20% on others. It's all relative. And really needs to all be on the same perspective.

They hire installers that know next to nothing if even that much.Hand them drawings showing what wire to run where.

This I agree with

They might have one $12 an hour guy to oversee the job with 5 guys under him at $8 .

The pay rates probably vary from area to area.

They walk in and wire a simple bare min 3/2 in one day.
Now if you have 8 crews doing roughs and another 8 crews doing trims ,you are turning a house an hour.


Maybe. If each crew is getting done in 8 hours. What about the crew who has a sick guy, does that throw it off at all?

At $300 per house you take home $12,000 a week.

Profit does not equal "owner's salary'.

It requires hiring a few good men to go behind fixing problems and some good office help.

So there went the profit margin. How much does each return trip effect the profit margin? On $300 I bet it is more than you think.

Bottom line is the owner makes his money by buying materials cheap and making only a few dollars an hour off each mans hourly wage.

I make my money by working hard, being on top of things, putting together a good 'team'.

Think about it and you will see why his price is cheap.He will beat a normal shops prices every time.

His price is cheap because he is a moron. He is not a good business man. If he were a good business man, he would not want such a slim profit margin.

Think about it, if he was making $600 per house using your figures, he would be making $24,000 a week.

Because these guys think of 'Quantity', they lose site of the 'Big Picture'. They are ruled be G.C.s. They let the G.C.s tell them what the'll pay. When the building boom slows, they are the first to go out, and the electricians who make an honest wage take over.
 
Re: I dont see how.

I'd like to pick up on something that Todd mentioned. He is absolutely right about an ECs ability to pay their material bill.

I briefly worked for a supplier so I know this to be true. I can tell you that those who were constantly behind on their bills and had the "CREDIT HOLD!!!!" message pop up on the screen all the time did not receive the same treatment as those who pay on time.

We would be very hesistant to discount or do favors for those who were deeply in debt to us. But the worst part was how embarrasing it was for their employees when we had to turn them away because we couldn't release any more credit. It got so bad with one customer that his employees started using their personal credit cards and checks to get material to do the day's work. Coincidentally, this customer was doing all the work for a national homebuilder in the area.
 
Re: I dont see how.

macmikeman before you label me as a snob remember that my opinion is based on being an employee of various companies not as an owner.
Bob, you are the very last guy I would ever call a snob. You are here helping too many people who know less than you to be one. Typical of snobs is they have no tolerance for those who have less knowledge than they do, and by the posts you have written, I know you have endless patience.
What I actually meant is often I run across people who sneer at residential work as being too low on the evolutionary scale for them. I have spent alot of time in both worlds and happen to prefer romex work as I like the outdoors feel of it all. I wear shorts every day. (Don"t tell anybody from the safety forum). I do work pretty hard, for a 50 year old guy, but that's cause I really push myself hard on the job. I weigh in at 143 lbs. I think romex work keeps me looking this way. Granted, bending pipe is fun stuff. I don't miss lugging 12' step ladders around. I sure don't miss 750 mcm wire pulls. The thing for me most difficult was Management of employee's. This is the very thing I had the most difficulty with in my whole career.
 
Re: I dont see how.

I think I am going to change my profile from contractor to "electrician with contractors licence." Would seem to be more to the key, since I don't run a big ship.
 
Re: I dont see how.

I too use to work for a guy that was behind in his payments.Very embarrasing to have to hand the delivery guy a check before he could unload.

As to my post please understand i am not saying i like this system.Just stateing how its being done here.Here i sit with thousands of homes going up around me within 10 miles of my door and can not get a job wiring a house.Well yes i can but lousy pay and would get all the problems the monkeys made.As i have said before if so much as one card holding journeyman was required on each job starting monday then building would come to a crawl.Make the card worth something and you will see pay go up.Glad to hear its not like this up north.
 
Re: I dont see how.

California has moved up the date requiring certified journeyman on each job at least twice. The test here is too basic to be of much value. In spite of this, not many electricians are taking the test.

Last year I was a rope slinger doing tract homes. Shortly after passing the certification, I applied at the shop in my county with the best reputation. I was hired after extensive interviewing and background checks. I started with nearly a five dollar per hour increase and a company utility truck.

We only do custom homes, commercial, and industrial. I primarily run residential and service work.

It has been a long time since I have worked for a shop that does quality work.

My last employer has over 500 field people and couldn't care less if the foreman are certified.
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by georgestolz:
I am not terribly concerned with speed, more with getting the job done correctly the first time, which has the side effect of speed.
That is usually how it works, at least wherever trained professionals are concerned.

For the record, I am now a piece-working "rope slinging monkey", and work no differently than I did when it was exclusively hourly.
My hunch is that you are not typical. Your posts here indicate that you know quite a bit more than the average chimp. I assure you, that would make you overqualified to work in many of the resi shops around here. I've seen more "electricians" than I care to count that knew nothing beyond color to color splicing and "drill a hole wherever the X is."

If you put in a day's work, for a day's wage, you can make around $20/hr without breaking a sweat. If you want to make $24/hr, you're either going to have to be very smart or very fast, and run.
I understand the concept... to a point. I use a similar system for lighting retrofit work. Except my installers make more than resi guys, without having to run. Which leads me to wonder why anyone would get wrapped up in the tract housing game, as an installer. That kind of defies the "work smarter not harder" concept.


I guess my point is, there are many niches in our industry. Mass-volume tract-housing is different. That doesn't make it evil, or corrupting our industry, or whatever.
I don't recall ever saying it was evil. But, from a contractors prespective, tract housing is entirely too cut throat for my liking. Some guys do very well at it. I myself don't care for the extra stress of having to constantly fend off low ball bids from other contractors.

Is the guy flipping burgers at McDonald's destroying the industry for the highly paid chef at the five-star restaurant? Very doubtful. They operate independently of each other, and barely know the other exists. They play to completely different markets. They both serve food, and that's where the similarity ends.
The same goes for custom homes, commercial, and tract homes. Just because we dance to different music, doesn't mean we deserve disdain..
And, in general I show no disdain for you. A tract contractor has his market, and I have mine. That's all well and good. Trouble is, so many resi shops look at small commercial and drool. So many think "hey it's only a 2500 sq foot restaurant, it can't be any harder than wiring a home." That mindset has trashed the margins in what used to be one of my better niche markets. Mind you, I've seen more than one resi outfit tap out and close up shop after getting the bottom line pounded on a restaurant project. That fact does nothing to mitigate the damage they did to the bid pricing for such projects.

An industrial guy just asked a question that I found easy. Does that make him stupid? No. Just experienced to a different end. .
No argument there. But, I'm still inclined to believe that you are not representative of the typical resi ranger. I know you aren't representative of the half witted clowns they pass off as electricians around here. It's sad really, these guys know almost nothing and will never be taught anything, therefore they will never be able to be anything more than they are. Somehow, I don't think that describes you.

[ August 28, 2005, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: cselectric ]
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by macmikeman:

The thing for me most difficult was Management of employee's. This is the very thing I had the most difficulty with in my whole career.
Wow mac, I think you and I have a lot in common. Employee management frustration is what drove me to become self employed and a 1 man show.

I know I'll never get rich, but I make a reasonable living, and don't have to kill my self all the time.
 
Re: I dont see how.

But back to the original post would any of us do the job less than we bid? 10k was the bid the G.C. wanted 4.5k doesn't matter if you are the only employee or you have an army would you do the job for a lower price?
 
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