I dont see how.

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Re: I dont see how.

I know I sound like a broken record but here goes. When you have to compete with electricans working on the side after hours and then you have the contractors that use labor pools like man power and force the market down this is what you end up with. A market that can not support honest fair paying contractors whether union or nonunion. I know in this area many of the EC's are not bidding new homes because there are no profit margins to speak of. But then there own electricans are out at night wiring homes for there buddys. Then these same guys wonder why they are sitting home for months because there is no work. :mad:
 
Re: I dont see how.

This is a very interesting thread. It seems that alot of you fellas seem to think that $300.00 profit on a whole house wiring job is "good money". I don't know where you guys are from, but I think I can drive around in a nice big Caddy and smoke a nice big ceegar if you all would come up here to the northeast (Connecticut) and wire up some houses up here for $3500.00. I am gonna hang up my tool belt and give you guys the jobs. All kidding aside though, the minimum around here is about 10 grand for a code job and MORE as things get added on. I guess we are in a wonderland here in Fairfield county. BTW High Test gasoline is > $3.00 a gallon as of today. My van now cost me about $70.00 to fill up. Where does it all end? What is a "ham and egger"?
 
Re: I dont see how.

Like gudguy I too am from CT. I was just talking to another EC today and saying that I was not bidding on new houses anymore. My thought is that if a GC is to ask me for a price that I am going to tell him that I only do custom homes. I am tired of hearing that they want code only then come to find out that the EC that they went with had $5000.00 in "extras". Well I planned on doing 3-ways in hallways and more than 1 light in the kitchen anyway. I hear of guys getting $55.00 per outlet and I don't understand how they can sell it. I do agree with the price especially seeing everything is going up in price every 24 hours. Went to bed last night gas was 2.59,this morning 2.79. Maybe we should do the same thing.
 
Re: I dont see how.

One thing I have learned in our industry is we do not install square footage! In fact the only thing we do that has anything to do with square footage is general lighting calculation (3VA per square foot).

If a General Contractor wants to bid his own job with square footage to get a price to his client; good for him. But my recommendation is when you bid a job BID THE JOB do a take off of all the items and value them with labor and material, once you are set up correctly your take off should only take about 2-8 hours depending on the drawings.
At minimum a better value determinator is $ per outlet and or control because this is what you will be providing, example $80.00 each would be your average of the total project divided by total outlets and or controls.

A small house with many appliances and amenities will cost more to wire than a large house with conservative items. One cannot afford to do this business without formally estimating the proof is ALL who do this business by vaguely throwing values at projects only do this for a short time then they go to work for those who bid formally.
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by hardworkingstiff:
The little guy can pick and choose for higher profit jobs because the overhead is not as big an issue.
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I got to say I have been little and I have been big (a few times) and the little have more overhead then the big.

Overhead is: operating expenses, as a value or a percentage, of your total gross receipts. The "big" do more with less operating expenses by efficiently and wisely using their overhead items and staff. The "little" do not get this advantage and their ability to increase their volume hinders their ability to increase their gross receipts, they can only increase higher profit jobs, if available, and usually the higher profit jobs are only available with tight time constraints and prequalification so these usually require staff.

What I have found most true about the little is they often do not know they even have overhead so they do not track it. In most cases the "little" have more overhead (operating expenses/gross receipts) than the big.
 
Re: I dont see how.

The "big" do more with less operating expenses by efficiently and wisely using their overhead items and staff.
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Not always. Smart ones do. Others pay people to sit at computers and read useless e-mail for 2 hours a day, socialize around the coffee pot, attend lots of meetings that have no real substance, and a host of other environmental problems. I worked for a large corporation once, in management. It can be a real eye opener to see such vast squandering of company resources and time.
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by southernboys:
So I go talk to a spec home contractor. He offers you the same money. Pays for youre hand tools. Pays for a week off at christmas and the 4th of July. Whether youve been there a year or not. Says you can work as much ot as you want. Has beer at the shop for you when you get off...Oh by the way hes been in the business for 55 years.
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If he is not paying you with legal payroll he is getting rich off your back and you are working for low income at best. There is simply no way around the 20-30% burdens on your wages and if you are getting "straight pay" do not forget to subtract these unavoidable 20-30% burdens ($25 an hour is really $20). And to top it off if you are using your own vehicle don?t forget to subtract your overhead (use of vehicle plus replacement, 5% +/-, now you are making $18 an hour)!

Like Newton?s apple proves the law of gravity, burdens come out of your wages whether you know it or not.
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by macmikeman:
The "big" do more with less operating expenses by efficiently and wisely using their overhead items and staff.
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Not always. Smart ones do.
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Dumb ones do not last. Business only remains if it is viable and profitable, one cannot force profitable long without viability.
 
Re: I dont see how.

Key things in the idea of $300 per home.
1.buying wisely,this could easily be a full time job for one person.And if he messes up he gets canned fast.
2.Carefull hiring,every $ counts and only fast cheap help is wanted.They are trained to do only certain things.Perhaps only good at triming or perhaps very fast wire pullers.6 foot guys can usually pull wire with no ladders over trusses.Down here they take advantage of south of border guys who are happy at $8 an hour.They live with as many as 20 in a small 2,000 ft rented house.
3.Only work for GC that pay fast.By getting paid in 10 days or less they are not using there own money.Workers often get paid every other week.The rich never use there own money,OPM is the way they go.And should the fail they are incorporated so loose nothing.
4.Either you join them or don't bother even bidding.
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by jimwalker:
only fast cheap help is wanted.They are trained to do only certain things.Perhaps only good at triming or perhaps very fast wire pullers...Down here they take advantage of south of border guys who are happy at $8 an hour.They live with as many as 20 in a small 2,000 ft rented house.
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Does the company you work for pay legal payroll? Payroll that contributes to our society rather than takes! I hope you are exaggerating about the amount per house, as far as I know this is not allowed anywhere in the USA!

But maybe the type of wan-a-bee's that promote this should be "south of the boarder" trying to wire down there because they certainly aren't electricians and absolutely aren't electrical contractors!

If we allow our trade to be minimized to mindless motion we are in fact promoting dangerous wiring, and could throw the NEC out. The truth is there are many facets to our trade but an electrician in every facet is still an electrician and this is a person who fully understands the hazards as well as the benefits of each application. An electrician is a serious occupation not a cheap mindless idiot! The developers and investors who sell these houses sell them for ALL THEY CAN GET with or without cheap wages; all you do with cheap wages is give the seller a fatter profit. Don?t be stupid in business be smart if your having trouble figuring out what to charge take a business class but don?t just mindlessly charge what some contractor said you can charge!
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by tryinghard:
I hope you are exaggerating about the amount per house, as far as I know this is not allowed anywhere in the USA!
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That's not entirely accurate.

In the words of one pilgrim, "No vivo en la casa de mi compa, estoy solo esparando para unos pocos noches. Es differente." :D
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by georgestolz:
In the words of one pilgrim, "No vivo en la casa de mi compa, estoy solo esparando para unos pocos noches. Es differente." :D
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And in the words of another pilgrim "Let us eat turkey".
 
Re: I dont see how.

" as far as I know this is not allowed anywhere in the USA!"

Not allowed ? what law would they be breaking ?

Perhaps your misunderstanding something.After they pay all material ,wages,social security,workers comp,and overhead they clear 300.They are very much within the law.It is because of the licensing laws in Florida that allow them hire non carded men that they get away with this.It upsets me too.Yes a homeowner should receive better but they are under the wrong impression that it was done by licensed men and the county inspected it.Our inspectors don't like it either.The way it is here is only a master can pull the permits .And he can hire an unlimited number of men with no license what so ever.He is not even required to drive past the house.Should something go wrong he is insured.

Company i now work for does commercial only.

Other than custom homes they only need installers and a handfull of journeymen to fix the goofs.I invite you to visit our area and hope you can speak spanish.Or look at the adds in the Tampa tribune.The track home wirers are always running adds.The only way this system if 300 per house works is because they do it 8 times a day.One of the members on this forum works for a company that did 2500 homes last year and i believe he told me they were pushing 3,000 this year.Can you say BUYING POWER
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by jimwalker:
" as far as I know this is not allowed anywhere in the USA!"

Not allowed ? what law would they be breaking ?
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your previous quote: "Down here they take advantage of south of border guys who are happy at $8 an hour.They live with as many as 20 in a small 2,000 ft rented house."

They would be encouraging bad health conditions: 20 people using: a toilet, shower, eating, utilities are not designed to serve this capacity, 100 sq ft per person... I guarantee every city in the USA has a health department that enforces laws and regulations against 20 people trying to live in 2,000 sq ft of home. If you don't think so you are naive, I would not even waste my time trying to rationalize this or even bother asking local health departments; it's just plain common sense!
So the laws they are breaking are many, but they are too naive and lazy to look, the real law they are breaking is: common sense!

My comments are defending the value of an Electrician and Electrical Contractor. You are rationalizing our worth to that of a paperboy or not quite the value of a grocery store bagger. It really does not matter who gets the permit when the permit puller is gone, or in light of these wages finally gets a real job like garbage truck driver. You see an Electrician is much more responsible than these positions and we are paid for this responsibility, this is not to demean these comparables it is just plain fact.

I will say the seller of the homes does NOT base the sale price on the cost of the home (cost x mark up = sale price).

THE SALE PRICES OF THE HOMES ARE ALWAYS BASED ON WHAT THE MARKET WILL BARE!

So when you encourage cheap wages you are only hurting our economy, encouraging poor health conditions, you are not helping the house sell for less, and you are devaluing the worth of an Electrician and Electrical Contractor.

Profit can be defined as: the amount of return for the level of risk taken. $300.00 Return to provide an electrical system in a home is pathetic and stupid; the ONLY one benefiting with this return is the seller.
 
Re: I dont see how.

Never said i like how it turned out, i don't.When i first started there was good money to be had.All i can tell you is come have a look.The EC could care less about how they live.He pays for 40 hours of there week.Have seen the workers put up tents for sleeping room.While we would not live like that you need to understand it is still 10 times better than what they had from where they come from.Quality of the job is poor but passes code and works.And when they get word of the higher pay up north they might head your way :) i had a builder doing just that.

[ September 03, 2005, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
Re: I dont see how.

Jim, you may end up working for one of these Spanish speaking people before it's over.

There are a good number of these people pooling resources as well as pursuing educations in the electrical field.

Think about it, like it or not, you are as much a immigrant to Fl as they are.


Roger

[ September 03, 2005, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Re: I dont see how.

Roger,we use to say will the last american to leave Miami please bring our flag.Might soon need to replace Miami with Florida.My problem with them is not that they are here but they won't speak english and will work so cheap.If i went to live in there country they would expect me to speak spanish.
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by jimwalker:
My problem with them is not that they are here but they won't speak english and will work so cheap.
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Jim, forgetting the language part of your post, the "working for cheap" part was also said of people like yourself coming from northern states in the 60's, 70's, and 80's.

Do you think that was fair or true?

Roger
 
Re: I dont see how.

electricmanscott said, Any electrician that wires that house for less than the 10K you came up with is a complete waste of the word "Electrician".
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2400 sq.ft. home Rough in and trim out/Myself (master) at $20.00/hr, two guys(journeymen) at $11.00/hr and two guys(apprentice) at $8.00/hr for eight hours can rough in this house for $464.00 labor and $700.00 material, we can trim it out for $464.00 labor(maybe less) and $700.00 material. At $1.50 sq.ft. and $450.00 for the 200A service, that's $4050.00. Subtract labor and material and there is $1722.00 left over. The company took in almost twice of what it put out in labor.
stud696981 said, Hmm........$300 profit for a whole house? I make more then that doing a service change over.
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Wiring houses is an art, not every electrician can do it efficiently. With a good crew you can make money and keep the guys busy in between high dollar service changes and those wonderful T&M jobs.

[ September 04, 2005, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: redfish ]
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by redfish: "Subtract labor and material and there is $1722.00 left over."
Wow, $1722.00 left over. Thats great, Does your company not have any overhead? Taxes, insurance, workers comp., gas, advertising, accountant, truck maintenance, shop expenses, cell phones, et., etc., etc. Plus you didnt even take out a permit fee from your $1722.00. So how much of your overhead is $1722.00 going to cover? Your profit will be more like $300 when you pay all your bills. :p

[ September 03, 2005, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: GG ]
 
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