I dont see how.

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Re: I dont see how.

Here in CT. the law is that apprentices must be registered and have an apprentice card. A schedule of pay they are to recieve is set down year by year up to the 4 years that one needs. By law an EC can not hire "just anybody" as a helper, they MUST be a registered apprentice to be a helper. Furthermore, an apprentice must be actively enrolled in or have completed a state approved schooling program for electricians. This makes it "technically" illegal to hire unregistered help for less than the "wage" set down by the state for the term in which the apprentice is in. I do believe a 1st year apprentice starts out at $11.00/hr and it goes up to about $18.00/hr in their 4th year. Also, an EC is required to pay a portion of his apprentices' schooling. So you can see an EC can not go to the local Taco Bell at 7AM and "pick-up" some "helpers" to wire up a house for a $300.00 profit at the end. Now just for comparison in locals in the housing market...3 bedroom ranch house on .3 acres with a garage in this area goes for $700,000.00. This would be a below average house around here, and average house being a 4 bedroom colonial with an acre of land would come in at 1.2 million dollars. EC's around here don't wire houses for $4000.00. Seriously, it could cost you $300.00 to change a light bulb around here if it was a HP bulb and needed a 40 foot ladder to get to. What really bothers me is that no matter where we all live and work we are all paying ALOT of money for fuel almost the same price thoughout the country but yet some guys are making a fraction of the money on their work as we do here. That hurts!!
 
Re: I dont see how.

Someone once told me that the electrical portion of a new house was roughly 5% of the cost of the house. I don't know if that is the price of the construction cost or the selling price. Assuming a house costs 300,000 to build the electrical portion would be 15000.00. That is before structured wiring is involved. As most GC's would say," What the hell is structured wiring?" I only know of 1 builder that I work with that is open to these kind of prices and has an open mind to structured wiring. If I could get 5% of total cost of a house I would be pretty satisfied,(I think).
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by gudguyham:
Here in CT. the law is that apprentices must be registered and have an apprentice card. A schedule of pay they are to recieve is set down year by year up to the 4 years that one needs. By law an EC can not hire "just anybody" as a helper, they MUST be a registered apprentice to be a helper. Furthermore, an apprentice must be actively enrolled in or have completed a state approved schooling program for electricians.
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Wow -- that's a pretty tight standard. How rigorously is it enforced?

Here in MN, an EC can hire anyone to do electrical work, but the law says that anyone not holding at least a journeyman license must be immediately supervised by someone who does, and the journeyman can supervise a maximum of two people at a time. I've heard from guys who work on larger jobs that inspectors sometimes spot check whether this ratio is being observed.
 
Re: I dont see how.

In defense of redfish - I just was on the davisbacon wage site . I know we are not discussing davisbacon jobs, But by looking at the prevailing wages for Texas It will give a person an idea of the wages in the area. It appears there are alot of places in Texas that have Very low rates of pay. I saw wages for Electricians as low as $8.00 and as high as 20 couple. If Redfish is in the part of the state that is in the 8 to 12 dollar area he is right on with his pay.
I can't get a decent apprentice here for under 15.00 an hour, But then again I'm in the Baltimore ,Maryland area.
 
Re: I dont see how.

Don?t get ?roped into believing? (or be so na?ve to think) the seller of any house bases the sale price on the cost of construction.

The sale price is ALWAYS BASE ON WHAT THE MARKET WILL BARE and not on the cost of construction!

This is true whoever is building, developing, or upgrading a home for sale and regardless of demographics. In the electrical contracting world we base our sale price on the costs plus our needed mark up and so it is easy for us to think other business? do the same but real estate is an exception to the rule and it does not respect this format. If you really want to enjoy the proof to my assertion build a spec home.

This topic started with another Electrical Contractor trying to justify the values of service rendered. There has been many good points shared but one particular point is as old as our trade: don?t sell yourself cheap! Don?t rationalize our worth, we have a very responsible position no matter what part of the industry we work.
 
Re: I dont see how.

Jeff, well, I am not sure how well the apprentice thing is monitored, but there is a ratio of apprentices to licensed electricians and here in CT. it is 1 to 1. In order to be a regisitered apprentice you must tell the labor dept. that issues the "certificate" who your EC is thsat you work for. They look up the records and see how many licensed electricians work for the EC company, if there is already the max. amount of aprrentices, you don't get a certificate for working for that EC. Now here is the problem. If an apprentice wants to get his license some day, he needs 4 years of apprenticeship logged in with a EC before he can sit and take the test. Now, an EC CAN hire someone who doesn't want to ever get a license but chances are he won't ever want to get a license, but, that would be against the rules. Most apprentices want to clock their hours and WON'T work unless they get credit for their hours. Do alot of EC's have guys working for them that are "legally" not apprentices? YES..but that person has no formal training and is not enrolled in a school where he is learning at the same time he is working. Thats the story!
 
Re: I dont see how.

Someone once told me that the electrical portion of a new house was roughly 5% of the cost of the house.
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I am thinking the 5% needs an upgrade based on current trends. The median price for homes in my city for 2005 is now $650,000 dollars. Bare in mind that for this $650,000 you will not be getting the Hefner mansion. This price today might get you a 3 bedroom 1-1/2 bath kit house with a carport,100 amp service, pressboard cabinets, and formica countertops, if you are lucky. If I could only get 5% of the sell price of every new house I wired I would be out in my new 48' sampan catching marlin right now instead of sitting here in front of my computer.
 
Re: I dont see how.

I am thinking the 5% needs an upgrade based on current trends. The median price for homes in my city for 2005 is now $650,000 dollars. Bare in mind that for this $650,000 you will not be getting the Hefner mansion. This price today might get you a 3 bedroom 1-1/2 bath kit house with a carport,100 amp service, pressboard cabinets, and formica countertops, if you are lucky. If I could only get 5% of the sell price of every new house I wired I would be out in my new 48' sampan catching marlin right now instead of sitting here in front of my computer.
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macmikeman, This is exactly my point of my earlier posts on this topic, in my area a brand new 2400 sqft, 3 bedroom 2 1/2 bath, 2 car garage home in a gated golf course community is $200,000.00, is that a lot compared to other parts of the nation? :)
 
Re: I dont see how.

Redfish,

$200,000 is a low price for a house like that. Besides labor, is building materials also cheaper down South?
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by luckyshadow:
In defense of redfish - I just was on the davisbacon wage site . I know we are not discussing davisbacon jobs, But by looking at the prevailing wages for Texas It will give a person an idea of the wages in the area. It appears there are alot of places in Texas that have Very low rates of pay. I saw wages for Electricians as low as $8.00 and as high as 20 couple. If Redfish is in the part of the state that is in the 8 to 12 dollar area he is right on with his pay. I can't get a decent apprentice here for under 15.00 an hour, But then again I'm in the Baltimore ,Maryland area.
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Be careful using that sort of information. Here in the midwest (and I believe on the East coast as well) Prevailing wage = union scale. That is the entire equation. In other areas (including the Southwest) Prevailing wage is determined by surveying local contractors regarding wage rates and taking an average.

I'll give you an example of the flaw in this method. When I worked in Phoenix AZ (2000) prevailing wage for electricians was $13.00 an hour, union scale out of local 640 was $19.25 per hour, and I, working non union, was making better than scale. How the prevailing wage number was calculated is beyond me, but I have to presume that "contractors lying through their teeth" came into play somewhere.

Being I was earning well over prevailing, I never worried much about it. It did, however, bug me that Electrician was considered a "semi-skilled" position by the AZ DOL, and drywaller was considered a skilled trade. Drywallers also had a higher prevailing wage in AZ. I think this is what other posters are really getting at when they talk of low ball wages and the industry being drug down. Sure, wages vary widely from region to region. But an electrician is, and should be considered, a skilled craftsmen. Doesn't matter if you're in S. Texas, AZ, MD or Timbuktu, that fact shouldn't change. Yet, in some markets it has.

[ September 05, 2005, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: cselectric ]
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by redfish:
electricmanscott said, Any electrician that wires that house for less than the 10K you came up with is a complete waste of the word "Electrician".
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2400 sq.ft. home Rough in and trim out/Myself (master) at $20.00/hr, two guys(journeymen) at $11.00/hr and two guys(apprentice) at $8.00/hr for eight hours can rough in this house for $464.00 labor and $700.00 material, we can trim it out for $464.00 labor(maybe less) and $700.00 material. At $1.50 sq.ft. and $450.00 for the 200A service, that's $4050.00. Subtract labor and material and there is $1722.00 left over. The company took in almost twice of what it put out in labor.
stud696981 said, Hmm........$300 profit for a whole house? I make more then that doing a service change over.
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Wiring houses is an art, not every electrician can do it efficiently. With a good crew you can make money and keep the guys busy in between high dollar service changes and those wonderful T&M jobs.
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For comparison purposes, in 1985 I was wiring houses, nonunion @ 10.00 hour, no fringes... and then union @ 17.00 an hour plus fringes.

Learned the basics of the trade in tech school during grades 11 & 12 for 3 hours a day for 4 semesters. 1st house I roughed alone, a typical 4 bedroom 2 & 1/2 bath house - took 4 days x 8 hours. Next one took 3, and the next took 2 & 1/2. And 2 & 1/2 was considered the norm.

I see you spent a total of 40 man-hours in one 2400 sq.ft. home. Not to sound insulting, but that's pathetic. 1 QUALIFIED residential wireman can do it all alone in 20 hours or less @ 23.00 an hour.

And not have to live in a trailer park.

An $8.00 an hour wage will get some business' a lot of applicants, but nowhere is it going to get you speed or skill or anyone with some drive or motivation for success.

I know living expenses differ wildly around the country, and that is reflected in area wage scales... but even if your mortgage/rent was free and is tax free and your utilities were all free and you paid no State or local income tax... you still pay the same for a new car, insurance, food, clothing and vacations and recreational activities /sports /hobbies as everybody else.

No way can you justify 20.00 an hour for a master electrician as adequate or fair >anywhere<
and, $11.00 for a "journeyman?" Target pays $8.00 per hour. $9.00 if you'll work nights.

Some have mentioned the cost of living might be very low in your neck of the woods. What I think really matters is, what is the Standard of living for an electrician in your neck of the woods?
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by bobbyho:
I agree with supply and demand determining alot of costs. Lets not blanket an entire segment of construction saying it takes 2 to 3 months to learn to do a house. I've been in all 3 faces and would say that is just too generic. The circuitry is the same as well as the basic codes. There have been commercial guys that I have come across that could write their name in conduit but have no idea how to wire a 3way switch. I think that after 4 or 5 years apprenticeship and an additional 2 years of holding a journeyman's license any tradesperson that puts this much in deserves a proper salary. Not 11.00, I can return soda cans and make that.
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Agreed. But let me add... any electrician working residential that can't get the complete picture within 2 months needs to be canned. And a big problem I've seen in the industry is a lot of marginal employees are doing electrical work for short-sighted contractors all too egar to pay marginal salaries.
 
Re: I dont see how.

A general whom I used to work for called me up and told me the guys who are wiring the houses on his current tract are paid $350 per house, split three ways. The houses are over 3000 sq ft. This dicussed me. I would not do one of these houses, by my self, for $1000. The way wages are dropping in California is sick.
 
Re: I dont see how.

Without disagreeing about what anyone has said, there seems to be a misunderstanding about the original postings topic of $300 profit. The $300 is over the wages and all costs, including overhead. I know that expecting more profit for a house is good, but there were many times that i would have been happy to get the expected wages I tried to pay myself, and the $300 would have made me happy. I have also seen slow times where there was no $300 profit for anyone around.

I tried for 10% profit, that would have made the job $3000, and i would have ball parked the materials in reverse at under $1200, so the argument is really about the difference between $1800 and $2100.

I have also seen it slow enough that guys were charging not much over costs to keep kiting the material costs at their suppliers. But it isn't bad now so that shouldn't be the case.

just my 2cents, paul
 
Re: I dont see how.

It is not criminal of even slightly greedy to make middle class income with our responsibility as an Electrician. If you own the company you can add even higher risk to a greater responsibility for our skill even if you are a one-man shop. There comes a time to decide to walk away from work.

If your company is a sole proprietor and non-incorporated ALL values above your cost is profit so to compare to a company that pay?s parole takes some effort but this comparison is more actual to reality. I suggest find the middle class income (medium) in your area and use at least that. If you do parole staff don?t forget the wage burdens these are real costs that are multiplied to the base pay (20 x 1.30 burden = $26 cost an hour), burdens are never below 1.20 of the base wage. If you estimate and track using wages as if you pay them your books will give you accurate information and the wage IS what you are working for, willing to make.

Here is something to think about with small starter or track type homes: $60,000.00 annual profit / by $1,200 labor per house = 50 houses a year (2400 annual hours). Your $60,000.00 profit is taxed at 40% +/- is now $36,000.00 net income divided by the 2400 hours you worked = $15.00 an hour. With this scenario you never hired staff you were the only installer 100%. For $15.00 an hour you were never paid overtime to account for this you now make $13.60 and hour. So for $13.60 an hour you did work weekends, you invested, you fought with your contractor for pay? And for the $13.60 per hour don?t forget to buy your truck, truck maintenance, tools and tool replacement, insurance, fuel, marriage counselor, ? These would be your overhead items.

Why assume the builders risk? As I stated earlier, they will not be selling this house for less because you were cheap they WILL be selling it for market value though. Bottom line is; a $300.00 return on investment to wire a house is the kind of work to walk away from.
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by LawnGuyLandSparky:
I see you spent a total of 40 man-hours in one 2400 sq.ft. home. Not to sound insulting, but that's pathetic. 1 QUALIFIED residential wireman can do it all alone in 20 hours or less @ 23.00 an hour.
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I will come watch you on my own dime complete a 2400 sq foot house in under 20 man hours. I will even videotape it for everyone here to see.
 
Re: I dont see how.

Originally posted by sparky_magoo:
A general whom I used to work for called me up and told me the guys who are wiring the houses on his current tract are paid $350 per house, split three ways. The houses are over 3000 sq ft. This dicussed me. I would not do one of these houses, by my self, for $1000. The way wages are dropping in California is sick.
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I would demote him to colonel for that.
 
Re: I dont see how.

I would not be so sure about not being able to do a 2400 SF house in 24 hours.

I once talked with a RW type guy around here who claimed he averaged about 2 hours per room.

I suspect he was very well organized and did not waste any time.
 
Re: I dont see how.

I see you spent a total of 40 man-hours in one 2400 sq.ft. home. Not to sound insulting, but that's pathetic. 1 QUALIFIED residential wireman can do it all alone in 20 hours or less @ 23.00 an hour.
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Sorry, even though you try to not sound insulting, you do. Calling someone or something pathetic is not exactly constructive critisism. I'm not going to go through all the differences in the cost of living and material with someone as wise and industrious as you obviosly are. Twenty hours or less for one man? Residential wireman or not, that's pushing the boundry of sounding unreal(thats the nice way to say sounds like B.S. to me). At $23.00/hr for one man for 20 hours, your company spent $460.00 to wire a house, meanwhile, the company I work for pays $464.00 to five men to wire the same house in less than half the time. On the second day, while your lone wireman is still working on the first house, our crew has already finished a second house, and finally, on the third day at noon, when your lone wireman has finished the first house, our crew is half finished with our third house. Texas is a right to work state, there is no union. You aren't going to hear about the local electricians going on strike for higher wages. The company I work for is thetop paying company around, and if you look in the yellow pages, you'll see a lot of competition. That's just the way it is, and don't think for a second that we are not QUALIFIED, because we are licensed, bonded and insured. :)

[ September 06, 2005, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: redfish ]
 
Re: I dont see how.

Bob Peterson,
Originally posted by electricmanscott:
Originally posted by LawnGuyLandSparky:
I see you spent a total of 40 man-hours in one 2400 sq.ft. home. Not to sound insulting, but that's pathetic. 1 QUALIFIED residential wireman can do it all alone in 20 hours or less @ 23.00 an hour.
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I will come watch you on my own dime complete a 2400 sq foot house in under 20 man hours. I will even videotape it for everyone here to see.
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Just to put life in perspective, a house with 2400 sq ft should have somewhere in the neighborhood of 180 openings, give or take.

:D

It's utter and complete hogwash. I'll hold the light while Scott films this snuff film. :D :D

[ September 06, 2005, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
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