Idiot pool installers.......

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c2500

Senior Member
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South Carolina
Ok, the pool installers I had previously mentioned in another post got their permit. It is a fiberglass pool with only a light. I pulled the electrical. I spoke with the inspector the other day, and he said make sure I run a #4 insulated bonding strap through the conduit. (It was a casual conversation over the counter with no code books open, so I won't fault the error...plus we don't have very many pools around) I have since read it only has to be an #8 according to 680.22(B)(2)(b) (2005 NEC)

Well the bozo installed a #10 today. I want to scream. Also, as I am looking by flashlight, he has used a section of white flexible pvc that I don't think is rated for wire use. Then it goes into schedule 40 PVC that is electrically rated. They need to bury the light before they can proceed, and are wanting an inspection for the light. I can't wait to break it to them that there will be no calls for inspection until I see it wired correctly.

For what it is worth, in the State of South Carolina, ANYONE can install a residential pool. Only commercial pools require a license. The guy just had to get his business license to be able to pull the permit.

c2500
 
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Sort of? They pulled a permit to install the pool. I pulled the permit to wire the pool. (THey run the wiring to the j-box, and I take it from there.) A mechanical contractor will pull the permit to hook up the gas heater.
 
So are you responsible for all the wiring even if they installed it? The wire size is to small to start, what about the potting compound on the connection in the wet niche? I wouldn't want to rely on pool installers to do any electrical work.
 
Chevy, I agree. You need to make sure your inspector agrees that (a) you are only responsible for the wiring you do, (2) he knows where that point ends, and (d) your inpection shouldn't depend on the idio, I mean, the pool guy's work.
 
Don't worry.....I will get to the bottom of it. It will fail, so I am not concerned in that regard. I guess on Monday (rain here tommorow) bozo and I will make sure everything is done to code.
 
The inspector is aware the guy is installing the light. Ultimately though, I am resposible for the wiring. It will be done to code. Period. I am getting a crash course in pools as this is my first. What scares me is how many pools the County has approved that were not done to code. (If these guys put them in, I can only imagine they wired them all the same) Fortunately, the city is very particular.
 
c2500 said:
I guess on Monday (rain here tommorow) bozo and I will make sure everything is done to code.

I am getting a crash course in pools as this is my first.
Click to expand...
I hope you're getting compensated for all the extra work and headache.
 
SEO said:
So are you responsible for all the wiring even if they installed it? The wire size is to small to start, what about the potting compound on the connection in the wet niche? I wouldn't want to rely on pool installers to do any electrical work.
Click to expand...

relying on them to do the pool work correctly isn't warranted in many
cases as well... :p .... after watching a number of pool contractors
do remodels, etc. i now understand why pool leaks around the skimmer are
so common. around so calif, shoddy work is pretty much the norm.

truth be told, i use #6 for everything, for a few reasons:

i always have a spool on the truck for services and whatnot.
it is far more difficult to break than #8, so it's physically more secure.
it cadwelds nicely. #8 is a bit thin and prone to scorching.

over half of the pool pumps i get service calls on aren't even grounded.

i just finished grounding a pool remodel in huntington beach, ca.

it amounts to:
two 8' stainless steel ground rods (SS is a local requirement)
burndy split bolt threaded lug replacing one of the motor bolts.
direct burial burndy ground clamp on the 1/2" existing bronze light conduit.
two fresh pool shell bond attachments, *not* using old #8 wire, cadwelded.
#6 copper from pool equipment to service, direct burial in dirt
#6 copper inside of light conduit, from wet niche lug to bond
all connections cadwelded, including to the ground rods.
3m wet niche potting compound used on the niche lug.

why so bulletproof?

15 years ago, i ended up giving expert testimony in a wrongful death
investigation by a grand jury in a pool light electrocution.

the person who did the work, and was subsequently indicted, and
convicted of manslaughter, went to prison, and lost over 2 million
dollars in the civil aspect of the proceeding. a 19 year old girl died.

how'd you like to explain to the district attorney how you saved $$$
by using the bare minimum? i've never had any reaction to my overkill
grounding other than satisfaction from an inspector.

that's why.

i've also had to prove to the inspector that my grounding is
sufficient, as in less than 25 ohms. my ground from the forming
shell to earth ground is usually about .3 ohms.

i've also had to prove connectivity on a filled commercial pool, or
the inspector was going to make the pool contractor remove and redo
all 5 lights. that can be accomplished by meggering the lamp bezel to
the ground rod, with a digital megger, and seeing how many volts
difference of potential there is, with 1000 volts applied. there shouldn't
be more than 1 volt difference of potential.



randy
 
Fulthrotl said:
relying on them to do the pool work correctly isn't warranted in many
cases as well... :p .... after watching a number of pool contractors
do remodels, etc. i now understand why pool leaks around the skimmer are
so common. around so calif, shoddy work is pretty much the norm.

truth be told, i use #6 for everything, for a few reasons:

i always have a spool on the truck for services and whatnot.
it is far more difficult to break than #8, so it's physically more secure.
it cadwelds nicely. #8 is a bit thin and prone to scorching.

over half of the pool pumps i get service calls on aren't even grounded.

i just finished grounding a pool remodel in huntington beach, ca.

it amounts to:
two 8' stainless steel ground rods (SS is a local requirement)
burndy split bolt threaded lug replacing one of the motor bolts.
direct burial burndy ground clamp on the 1/2" existing bronze light conduit.
two fresh pool shell bond attachments, *not* using old #8 wire, cadwelded.
#6 copper from pool equipment to service, direct burial in dirt
#6 copper inside of light conduit, from wet niche lug to bond
all connections cadwelded, including to the ground rods.
3m wet niche potting compound used on the niche lug.

why so bulletproof?

15 years ago, i ended up giving expert testimony in a wrongful death
investigation by a grand jury in a pool light electrocution.

the person who did the work, and was subsequently indicted, and
convicted of manslaughter, went to prison, and lost over 2 million
dollars in the civil aspect of the proceeding. a 19 year old girl died.

how'd you like to explain to the district attorney how you saved $$$
by using the bare minimum? i've never had any reaction to my overkill
grounding other than satisfaction from an inspector.

that's why.

i've also had to prove to the inspector that my grounding is
sufficient, as in less than 25 ohms. my ground from the forming
shell to earth ground is usually about .3 ohms.

i've also had to prove connectivity on a filled commercial pool, or
the inspector was going to make the pool contractor remove and redo
all 5 lights. that can be accomplished by meggering the lamp bezel to
the ground rod, with a digital megger, and seeing how many volts
difference of potential there is, with 1000 volts applied. there shouldn't
be more than 1 volt difference of potential.



randy
Click to expand...

Cool, I bet the inspector breathes easier when he sees your work.
 
Fulthrotl said:
15 years ago, i ended up giving expert testimony in a wrongful death
investigation by a grand jury in a pool light electrocution.

. . . . . . . . . . . .

how'd you like to explain to the district attorney how you saved $$$
by using the bare minimum? i've never had any reaction to my overkill
grounding other than satisfaction from an inspector.

that's why.
Click to expand...

while i know there's a lot more to your story, i hope part of your expert testimony didn't include the words "bare minimum", which simply means the other EC followed the code. If it did, then why not hand indictments out to the CMP for 680? Code minimum is not hack work.
_________________________________________________

as for the flexible pvc used for installing the light, your pool guy may be used to doing fiber optic lights, because that's exactly what we use for those.

there are good pool contractors and bad ones. when i get involved with a bad one, i tell them to find somebody else. that's all you can do.
 
brantmacga said:
while i know there's a lot more to your story, i hope part of your expert testimony didn't include the words "bare minimum", which simply means the other EC followed the code. If it did, then why not hand indictments out to the CMP for 680? Code minimum is not hack work.
_________________________________________________

as for the flexible pvc used for installing the light, your pool guy may be used to doing fiber optic lights, because that's exactly what we use for those.

there are good pool contractors and bad ones. when i get involved with a bad one, i tell them to find somebody else. that's all you can do.
Click to expand...

obviously, no criticism is warranted for work in compliance with
applicable codes. the guy doing the work was not a licensed *anything*.
electrical or anything else......


randy
 
he said make sure I run a #4 insulated bonding strap through the conduit
Click to expand...


Hmmmm....here the bond wire is not in the conduit. The bond lug is actually on the outside of the niche. The only thing IN the pool light conduit is the cord which is attached to the sealed light.
 
220/221 said:
Hmmmm....here the bond wire is not in the conduit. The bond lug is actually on the outside of the niche. The only thing IN the pool light conduit is the cord which is attached to the sealed light.
Click to expand...

I believe there should be a #8 going back to the jb of the pool light. I have always seen the #8 and the rubber cord inside the conduit from the niche light to the JB
 
Look at section 680.23 (B) (2) (a) &(b) if a bonding jumper is installed it shall be a min of a # 8 insulated copper and where terminated encapsulated in a listed potting compound.
 
why so bulletproof?

15 years ago, i ended up giving expert testimony in a wrongful death
investigation by a grand jury in a pool light electrocution.

the person who did the work, and was subsequently indicted, and
convicted of manslaughter, went to prison, and lost over 2 million
dollars in the civil aspect of the proceeding. a 19 year old girl died.

how'd you like to explain to the district attorney how you saved $$$
by using the bare minimum? i've never had any reaction to my overkill
grounding other than satisfaction from an inspector.

that's why.
Click to expand...

Now he is a professional who understands safety and why.

Most building and electrical codes are written in blood and there is a reason for it.

BTW, PA has a law that requires all commercial/public pools have an electrical inspection every 3 years. Any other states have similar requirements?
 
Well, me and the pool idiot had a chat Friday morning. I am working out of town, so I stopped by to give him the bad news. He was PISSED. He said he had been using that same roll of #10, (which by the way "is the only wire Home Depot sells that is rated for pool use"...his words, not mine) Not only that, but he has been using this 500' roll in the County for a while now and has never failed. I told him he will fail, and he WILL run a #8. Then he said he had to get not only the wire, but more potting compound. I just smiled.
I was out of town again today, but will ride over tommorow and check it out.
Furthermore, he is mad that he is being made to install it to code. (I am checking up before the inspector comes out) Also, he was telling me he was going to be taking his builder's license exam. I am nervous on many levels. We can just use a 2x4 instead of the code required 2x10...it will hold.:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

You know what scares me the most? The fact that these guys are getting away with this in the County. I don't have have alot of respect for the County inspectors due to things I have seen over the years, but I have to say I hold my city inspectors in high regard.

More to come......

c2500
 
We are lucky in Michigan. All inspectors are required to be licensed by the State under Act 54. So whether you work in the UP or Southern Michigan you will have a licensed inspector. But like everything else not everybody sees or reads things the same.
 
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