Is it required per 2008 to install a 2 pole 20a gfi type breaker to feed a pool circ pump and vac pump? The way I read article 680 says to install them. If that is the case their is no neutral so you just put the pigtail from the breaker to the neutral bar?
Inground pool pumps 240v GFCI
- Thread starter bth0mas20
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bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Yes. Section 680.22(B) of the 2008 NEC mandates the GFCI protection...
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
That is correct. The neutral from the breaker is needed for the electronics of the breaker.
BTW, I have heard some members had a workaround. Install a DP 25 amp breaker on the circuit and no GFCI is needed. I would not do this but it appears to be compliant, however the 2011 reworded the article and it appears to have taken that option away.
I just wanted to make sure the money Ive been spending on dp gfi breakers for pools is necessary. I just saw a friends new installed pool that thier electrician installed non gfi dp breakers for the 2 pumps. He also used non metallic liq tite with pvc connectors and cord and plug for pumps longer than 3 ft. It has not gone to inspection yet so we shall see
John120/240
Senior Member
- Location
- Olathe, Kansas
Sealtight/Carflex would be acceptable with a ground wire inside the conduit
along with the hot & neutral
along with the hot & neutral
bradleyelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- forest hill, md
You can wire the pumps 120 and use a cheaper breaker, or use a dead front GFI device. If you are installing a pool panel and can feed it with either 50 or 60 Amps you can get a spa disconnect the same manufacture of the house panel and use the 50-60 GFI breaker and GFI protect the whole pool panel. or feed through the spa disconnect to feed the pool panel.
M. D.
Senior Member
bradleyelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- forest hill, md
If the panel is protected by ground fault protection is the outlet also protected?
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
One would think so and many people do it. Personally I think it can be a trouble shooting nightmare. If the light causes problems then the entire panel is out, etc.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
The problem as I see it is in article 680.23(A)(3) where it requires GFCI in the branch circuit. Technically GFCI in the feeder is not necessarily considered in the branch circuit.
bradleyelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- forest hill, md
I would consider the branch circuit GFI protected if it was protected. If the panel is protected then isn't the branch circuit originating from the panel protected? I wouldn't think it to be any less protected if done that way. I wouldn't consider it that hard to troubleshoot either. Disconnect all loads and reconnect 1 at a time. A spa disconnect breaker may or may not be the cheapest way to provide GFI protection on this project. I use it without issue when it is.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
I do think that the circuit would be GFCI protected if the feeder is however it is not clear by the article, IMO.
You might consider it that way, but if the job is inspected, the inspector might interpret it to require the GFCI on the branch circuit itself. Locally that is most often the case.
The liability associated with pool electrical systems is such that many bide by the literal wording.
I might add that if the GFCI is on the feeder then you are monitoring the entire system which would be the sum of all branch circuit "leaks". A few ma on each circuit which would not trip the individual GFCI added together will trip the feeder GFCI thus more
nuisance trips.
M. D.
Senior Member
I would most likely use individual protection. I'm not sure they had feeder protection in mind when they wrote the section. So can feeder GFCI protection also provide branch circuit GFCI protection ? It should be able to .
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
yeah. what he said.
if i have a subpanel for the pool and related equipment,
i have a separate GFCI breaker for each load...
i don't pick up induction trips by running multiple motor
wiring in the same conduit, which putting a single conduit
out of the main panel will sometimes give you.
i had a pool i charged no money on, made no changes
to the premises wiring, and still got sued a year later
for $2.5 million. the whole sordid story was put up on
here a year or two back, and doesn't bear repeating,
save to say that taking ANY shortcuts on pool or spa
equipment at all is NUTS.
the owner and landlord of the property in question,
ended up going to prison for manslaughter for his
money saving shortcuts.
everyone got sued, in the "shake the bushes for money"
exercise conducted by the attorneys.
just my experience. take it for what it's worth. the last
thing in your life you ever want to have to do is explain
to a district attorneys question how much money did
you save on that breaker at the expense of someone's life.
i didn't have to answer that question, 'cause i didn't do the
work.
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