Romex switch legs

[jetlag]

I answered this question-- do you not trust my response or did you miss it?

Sorry, that post must have came in while I was typing the other or I might have just replied to sparky before reading all the replies

 

[jetlag]

So where do you have power in a ceiling besides the box for the light? I generally have a receptacle within 5' of a switch box.





Yes I did.

I run the power to ceiling for the first room then I jump in ceiling room to room ,I dont put the lights on receptacle circuit , how are you using # 14 for lights? do you have 15 amp for the receptacles also ?

 

[480sparky]

I run the power to ceiling for the first room then I jump in ceiling room to room ,I dont put the lights on receptacle circuit ,

So all your splices are in the lights? Man, I'd really hate to troubleshoot your work!

how are you using # 14 for lights?

Same as anyone else who uses #14 for lights, including you.

do you have 15 amp for the receptacles also ?

Lights and receps, all on the same circuit. Legal all day long. You can wire your lights separate if you want to continue wasting time & material. I'm at the bank depositing my check while you're still at the site making boxes up.

 

[jetlag]

Wow. You're right! I'm saving a TON of wire!

Nice drawing , now add another room to left of drawing and assuming the rooms are 12x12 from the ceiling box in one room to ceiling box in the other is only 12 ft to get the power over,, coming switch to switch you have to come up the wall 4 ft cross over the the 12 ft ceiling and assuming the switch is on the nearest wall which is not always the case, you must go down 4 more ft to switch,, That ads up to 20 ft compaired to 12 , it could be 32 ft if switch is on the other side of room. Do several rooms an wonder why the wire ran out . If you are feeding all the lights off of receptacles then that is another matter, but not an option for me . :grin:

 

[480sparky]

.......... If you are feeding all the light off of receptacles then that is another matter, but not an option for me . :grin:

Apples and oranges, then.


Why is it not an option? Is that your company policy, or you just don't want to 'see the light'?

Again, if you want to run two circuits to the same area, then there's no way you're saving wire.

 

[jetlag]

Apples and oranges, then.


Why is it not an option? Is that your company policy, or you just don't want to 'see the light'?

Again, if you want to run two circuits to the same area, then there's no way you're saving wire.

Your "area" for 1800 watts is 600 sq ft , My area for 1800 plus 2400 is 1400 sq ft. So you have to pass by your first "area" with another 15 amp to get over in another part of my "area" and still another 15 amp to start on the other 600 sq ft "area" . I have one #14 and one #12 . You have 3 #14 , and a frowned upon 1200 max watt for single receptacle load. If the recep trips you are also in the dark.

 

[480sparky]

Your "area" for 1800 watts is 600 sq ft , My area for 1800 plus 2400 is 1400 sq ft. So you have to pass by your first "area" with another 15 amp to get over in another part of my "area" and still another 15 amp to start on the other 600 sq ft "area" . I have one #14 and one #12 . You have 3 #14 , and a frowned upon 1200 max watt for single receptacle load. If the recep trips you are also in the dark.

I never go by 'area' or square footage when laying out circuits. I go by outlets. 10 outlets in 500 ft? will have the same load as 10 outlets in 1500 ft?.

And, how often, in real life, do general purpose circuits trip?

 

[jetlag]

To save wire, if your light is close to your panel, then run 14/2 there and 14/3 to the switch. If you're wiring a fan/light, then it makes sense to hit up the switch box first.



If you used the 14/2 as two seperate switch legs, could this be considered parallel conductors?

I plan to do that , if a ceiling box is closer I can hit it with power, if it is a ceiling fan and light , I can hit the switch,, There are those bound and determined to say you have to hit the switch box first , I guess they are afraid they wont be able to trouble shoot, takng a fixture down is at owers expense not mine , there wont be fans to take down , I plan to hit the switch box on those

 

[Dennis Alwon]

You guys can argue all day long as nobody is right or wrong. This is a "do it my way argument" . Personally I would hate wiring a house with feeds in the lights but to each his own. I also hate trouble shooting those homes.

 

[jetlag]

I never go by 'area' or square footage when laying out circuits. I go by outlets. 10 outlets in 500 ft? will have the same load as 10 outlets in 1500 ft?.

And, how often, in real life, do general purpose circuits trip?

Are we still talking residential , you must have min 3 watts per sg ft for general purpose light and receptacles. You can add all the receptacles you want beyond the minimum required. So you are saying if you have recepts 1 ft apart on a wall when you count a certain number you run another circuit ? I believe you are talking commercial at 180 va each . :roll:

 

[480sparky]

Are we still talking residential , you must have min 3 watts per sg ft for general purpose light and receptacles. You can add all the receptacles you want beyond the minimum required. So you are saying if you have recepts 1 ft apart on a wall when you count a certain number you run another circuit ? I believe you are talking commercial at 180 va each . :roll:

You're talking about service calculations, which have nothing to do with how many outlets you can put on a dwelling circuit.

As for laying out circuits, I don't have any magic formula. I count the number of outlets, take into account what is likely to get plugged in to the receps, and use experience as a guide. Some receps will never get anything plugged into them, so I may not even count it. Others may get a lot of stuff plugged in, so I may even run a dedicated circuit.

I have no problems using 1 15a circuit for the lights, fans, and general receps in two bedrooms, a hallway and a bath.

 

[jetlag]

Jetlag, it's time to change your evil ways , baby. You can run 2 sets of 14/2 as long as it is nm cable but they need to be run together to minimize the emf's that are produced if separated. Not a good way to do it.

I haven't seen anyone run the power to the lights in over 30 years around here. All power is in the switch boxes-- easier to make joints etc.

Old habits die hard, I dont mind powering the switch if It dosn't waste a lot of wire. But I dont like being forced to on the grounds that powering a ceiling box is evil and old fashioned. One reason powering the ceiling box got started was when people decided to take a light down and put up a fan with light , there was only a switched wire for the light and no hot for the fan pull chain . You should advise the others to always use 14/3 to light when powering the switch even if 14/2 is all thats needed so customer can use the other conductor for the pull chain or take out the single gang and add a double for fan switch.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

You should advise the others to always use 14/3 to light when powering the switch even if 14/2 is all thats needed so customer can use the other conductor for the pull chain or take out the single gang and add a double for fan switch.

I almost always pull a 3 wire cable for a fan and I usually install 2 switches also just in case. Now that they make a dual fan/light dimmer control in one gang I will probably just have a 1 gang box instead of a 2 gang unless I know there will be a F/L

 

[480sparky]

Old habits die hard, I dont mind powering the switch if It dosn't waste a lot of wire. But I dont like being forced to on the grounds that powering a ceiling box is evil and old fashioned. One reason powering the ceiling box got started was when people decided to take a light down and put up a fan with light , there was only a switched wire for the light and no hot for the fan pull chain . You should advise the others to always use 14/3 to light when powering the switch even if 14/2 is all thats needed so customer can use the other conductor for the pull chain or take out the single gang and add a double for fan switch.

Running power to the ceiling box first isn't evil, but it sure makes troubleshooting a royal pain in the arse.

I always run 14/3 between the switch and ceiling in just about every room, whether there's a fan planned there or not. If not, I put a 1g box, cap it off the red and tuck it into the back.

 

[jetlag]

You're talking about service calculations, which have nothing to do with how many outlets you can put on a dwelling circuit.

As for laying out circuits, I don't have any magic formula. I count the number of outlets, take into account what is likely to get plugged in to the receps, and use experience as a guide. Some receps will never get anything plugged into them, so I may not even count it. Others may get a lot of stuff plugged in, so I may even run a dedicated circuit.

I have no problems using 1 15a circuit for the lights, fans, and general receps in two bedrooms, a hallway and a bath.

You have to divide the load calculation figured at 3 va per sq ft by 1800 or 2400 to determine the number of branch circuits required. Knowing that why would not divide them evenly for the sq ft . it will be 600 sq ft for 15 amp or 800 sq ft for 20 amp . I said nothing about how many receps you can put , you said that. If something is known to pull extra current it has to be added seperately for the load and not included in the general purpose wiring outlets.

 

[jetlag]

Well I hope every one is happy , it took some fiquring and extra holes to drill but I found a way to power the switch boxes I had planned to wire for today with out wasting wire. It was 2 bed rooms with bath and hall in between. I usually hit a ceiling box on one end and go across hitting every ceiling box with power. This time I hit the hall switch in the center with power and drilled the studs around the perimiter of the hall , when a door was in the way I went up to top of header and crossed over . the closets in the bedrooms just happen to be on the same wall with the bedroom doors so I drilled through the studs to get over. For the 14/2 to hit all the switches came out at 65 ft , which was within 5 ft of what I figured for hitting the ceiling boxes. I had previously figured 125 ft of 14/2 to hit all the switches before trying another approach. I didnt do the runs to the ceiling boxes yet but should be about the same as the old way except wont need any 14/4 . If this thread had not been started I would not even know about the 2011 code for neutral in the switch box . Thanks to all

 

[480sparky]

You have to divide the load calculation figured at 3 va per sq ft by 1800 or 2400 to determine the number of branch circuits required. Knowing that why would not divide them evenly for the sq ft . it will be 600 sq ft for 15 amp or 800 sq ft for 20 amp ............ .

Why are you so hung up on square footage? It doesn't matter whether a bedroom is 12x12, 14x14, 16x16 or 20x20.... the people are going to plug the exact same things in, no matter the size of the room.

It will contain the same TV, the same clock radios, the same night lights, the same cell phone charger, the same everything regardless of the room size.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

NM is not a raceway. That provision is so a grounded conductor could be added if the need arises later.

Let's see you add a conductor to a length of NM.

That is not how/why this code section was changed in the 2011 NEC.

 

[LarryFine]

That is not how/why this code section was changed in the 2011 NEC.

'Splain, please? The exceptions allow conduit wiring or one side of the wall open, either factlitating adding wires later.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Larry
This section was changed due to the .5 miliamp residual amperage the electronic switches pass, when the switch is turned off. This current with multiple switches installed to a branch circuit adds up. If the switch is backwired, the current will then be imposed on to the equipment ground conductor. They do not want it on this path anymore, hence bringing the grounded conductor to the box, so the path can be on the proper conductor.