Romex switch legs

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ceb58 said:
Isn't this going to change in the upcoming 2011 code? You can no longer use the 2 wire switch loop due to the requirement of having to have the grounded conductor in the box with the switch.
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Not in so many words. The neutral for the circuit must be present in the switch box. That means you'll need a black , red, and white in the cable.
 
ceb58 said:
Isn't this going to change in the upcoming 2011 code? You can no longer use the 2 wire switch loop due to the requirement of having to have the grounded conductor in the box with the switch.
Click to expand...

Here is what the 2011 says about neutrals and switch locations.

404.2 Switch Connections.
(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. Where switches
control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose
branch circuit, the grounded circuit conductor for the controlled
lighting circuit shall be provided at the switch location.
Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted
to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either
of the following conditions in (1) or (2) apply:
(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads enter
the box through a raceway. The raceway shall have
suffıcient cross-sectional area to accommodate the extension
of the grounded circuit conductor of the lighting
circuit to the switch location whether or not the
conductors in the raceway are required to be increased
in size to comply with 310.15(B)(3)(a).
(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is
open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or
through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side.
Click to expand...

Chris
 
Dennis Alwon said:
We assume the fed is also 14/2. If the circuits is a 20 amp circuit then 14/2 would be a violation.
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I think that is what he is refering to, using a #14 switch leg on a 20 amp circuit. It was common practice around here for years but it is no longer allowed. I can not say if it was ever allowed by the N.E.C. or if it was an A.H.J. call. The idea was the #14 switch leg would never carry any more current that used by the single light fixture , unless there was a short.
 
jetlag said:
I think that is what he is refering to, using a #14 switch leg on a 20 amp circuit. It was common practice around here for years but it is no longer allowed. I can not say if it was ever allowed by the N.E.C. or if it was an A.H.J. call. The idea was the #14 switch leg would never carry any more current that used by the single light fixture , unless there was a short.
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It never has been legal.

But I also recall it being posted here of one AHJ that required switch loops & legs on 20a circuit to be #14.
 
ceb58 said:
Isn't this going to change in the upcoming 2011 code? You can no longer use the 2 wire switch loop due to the requirement of having to have the grounded conductor in the box with the switch.
Click to expand...

This is the discussion I was thinking of and I couldn't remember if it was for 2008 or 2011. I think the rational makes sense about why they call it out as such. Thanks, everyone.

Jason
 
jetlag said:
I think that is what he is refering to, using a #14 switch leg on a 20 amp circuit. It was common practice around here for years but it is no longer allowed. I can not say if it was ever allowed by the N.E.C. or if it was an A.H.J. call. The idea was the #14 switch leg would never carry any more current that used by the single light fixture , unless there was a short.
Click to expand...

sorry that shoud have read "any more current than that"
 
480sparky said:
Not in so many words. The neutral for the circuit must be present in the switch box. That means you'll need a black , red, and white in the cable.
Click to expand...

Does this mean connecting a ceiling fan to an existing lighting outlet and using the pull chain for the fan word be a violation when the neutral is in the lighting outlet ? :-? In other words pull chains can no longer be used because they require a neutral in the ceiling outlet ?
 
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jetlag said:
Does this mean connecting a ceiling fan to an existing lighting outlet and using the pull chain for the fan word be a violation when the neutral is in the lighting outlet ? :-? In other words pull chains can no longer be used because they require a neutral in the ceiling outlet ?
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No. The intent is to have the circuit neutral present in the switch box.
 
NM is a raceway so what does this mean?

Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted
to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either
of the following conditions in (1) or (2) apply:
(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads enter
the box through a raceway.

Are dead ends still allowed?
Are backloops still allowed?
Does the grounded conductor only need to be at the 'supply' end?

I do not have the 2011NEC yet.
 
jxofaltrds said:
NM is a raceway so what does this mean?
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NM is not a raceway it is a cable.

Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted
to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either
of the following conditions in (1) or (2) apply:
(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads enter
the box through a raceway.
Click to expand...

If you are using EMT, ENT etc.. and there is adaquate room to pull a neutral in the future then you are not required to have one present in the box.

Are dead ends still allowed?
Are backloops still allowed?
Does the grounded conductor only need to be at the 'supply' end?

I do not have the 2011NEC yet.
Click to expand...

Basically dead end 3 ways and "backloops" are not permitted with NM cable in a finished wall.

The neutral conductor is required at ALL switch locations even 3 way and 4 way locations.

Chris
 
I will go on record as saying that I believe the wording of this sections not only demands a neutral at each switch but I believe it also requires a neutral for each switch on a different cir. in a bank of switches.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I will go on record as saying that I believe the wording of this sections not only demands a neutral at each switch but I believe it also requires a neutral for each switch on a different cir. in a bank of switches.
Click to expand...

Yes, I would agree with that interpretation.:)

Chris
 
480sparky said:
Not in so many words. The neutral for the circuit must be present in the switch box. That means you'll need a black , red, and white in the cable.
Click to expand...

Im lost , 2 wire cable "in'' entering switch box connects neutral "in" to neutral "out" to fixture , black "in " goes through switch to black "out" to fixture. Why the 3 wire out to fixture?
 
jetlag said:
Im lost , 2 wire cable "in'' entering switch box connects neutral "in" to neutral "out" to fixture , black "in " goes through switch to black "out" to fixture. Why the 3 wire out to fixture?
Click to expand...

If you feed the switch w/power, you don't.

But if you feed the light w/power, you need the black to feed the switch. You use the red as a switch leg. You leave the white as the required neutral in the switch box.

If you have a dead-end 3-way, you'll need to use 14-4 or 12-4 cable.
 
480sparky said:
If you feed the switch w/power, you don't.

But if you feed the light w/power, you need the black to feed the switch. You use the red as a switch leg. You leave the white as the required neutral in the switch box.

If you have a dead-end 3-way, you'll need to use 14-4 or 12-4 cable.
Click to expand...

Ok, so you have to run the neutral to switch whether it is needed or not and dead end it if not needed. I thought the posts were saying the neutral in switch box could not come from the fixture outlet , it had to be from a power line into switch box.
 
jxofaltrds said:
NM is a raceway so what does this mean?

Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted
to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either
of the following conditions in (1) or (2) apply:
(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads enter
the box through a raceway.
Click to expand...
NM is not a raceway. That provision is so a grounded conductor could be added if the need arises later.

Let's see you add a conductor to a length of NM.
 
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