Inspector says my zigzagged vanity wires have to be in a box

Status
Not open for further replies.
How do you prove what the code book doesn't say. If it doesn't say it you can do it. It should be on him to tell you what it says you can't.

The only thing I'd mention is cable securing. With the walls open, you can secure it and it needs to be within 12" on an old work box with clamps. After you close the wall you may be fishing the cable so it doesn't have to be secured. Maybe he wants it properly secured and you can do that when the wall is open. I guess you could always come back after the rough and fish it into place legally.

Seems like the best thing is to ask an inspector how you are supposed to do it when there are still unknowns on the job.
 
Buck Parrish said:
So my main question to all is . "Does the NEC specifically indicate that pop-in or renovation boxes can not be used on new construction" ?
The inspector said that I need to prove to him that it does not specifically say that. Because he thinks it does.
Click to expand...
The only time they may not be permitted is when they are installed in a fire rated wall. In those instances the box needs to be attached to a framing member.
 
Buck Parrish said:
So my main question to all is . "Does the NEC specifically indicate that pop-in or renovation boxes can not be used on new construction" ?
Click to expand...
Negatory.

The inspector said that I need to prove to him that it does not specifically say that. Because he thinks it does.
Click to expand...
Hand him the NEC and say, "Nope, it's not in there."

If he says, "Prove it," take the book back and ask what article he wants you to show him.
 
Buck Parrish said:
So my main question to all is . "Does the NEC specifically indicate that pop-in or renovation boxes can not be used on new construction" ?
The inspector said that I need to prove to him that it does not specifically say that. Because he thinks it does.
Click to expand...

It's the inspectors' responsibility to prove it does. He's deflecting the legal issue, probably because he knows he's wrong.
 
I think inspectors go through continuing Ed just like we do for our license, and I think they get taught to focus on certain things, and like our classes, the teacher may not be qualified, and put some of these crazy ideas in their heads.
 
No, it was Durham County (triangle area).. For their "rough-in wall inspections" they had this "thing" about conductors being made ( pig-tailed) the equipment grounding conductor (pig-tailed), and grounded conductor (not relying on device for continuity) "pig-tailed" being made @ time of rough-inspection for cover-up. The thing about "old work boxes" AKA: (gangable boxes w/ ears) and being installed afterward, not bonding the device to box, , in not removing the "keeper tab" from (one screw) while securing device to the box. The next inspection afterwards, would be final & device covers installed. What you looking for in question, in NFPA 70 (to my knowledge) does not appear. This was a Code Enforcement, N. Carolina thing.

So Code Enforcement didn't wanna see "old-work-boxes" @ time, during new construction for that reason..
 
Dell3c said:
No, it was Durham County (triangle area).. For their "rough-in wall inspections" they had this "thing" about conductors being made ( pig-tailed) the equipment grounding conductor (pig-tailed), and grounded conductor (not relying on device for continuity) "pig-tailed" being made @ time of rough-inspection for cover-up. The thing about "old work boxes" AKA: (gangable boxes w/ ears) and being installed afterward, not bonding the device to box, , in not removing the "keeper tab" from (one screw) while securing device to the box. The next inspection afterwards, would be final & device covers installed. What you looking for in question, in NFPA 70 (to my knowledge) does not appear. This was a Code Enforcement, N. Carolina thing.

So Code Enforcement didn't wanna see "old-work-boxes" @ time, during new construction for that reason..
Click to expand...
Should have known it was NC, They have some absurd rules there. LOL!
 
While there, I attending several their courses (taught by Code Enforcement).. Hey, it's just their "CYA" of things. Believing you denoted you installation in possible jurisdiction of Orange County(?) That being right next to Durham County..
 
James L said:
They don't need any code reference if they have a written amendment. That's what they require here, and I think it's a good idea. I think they just got sick and tired of hacks installing a swivel bracket on to the drywall with no box.

I think they don't require it actually mounted, but they want to make sure whoever is wiring the place is very well aware that there needs to be a box on the finish

I just went to fix one about 2 weeks ago they had the fixture screwed to the drywall. Apparently the guy thought the inspector wouldn't pull the fixture off and on the final inspection, but he did
Click to expand...
I've seen those swivels just as you described, also seen the sconces just mounted to the sheet rock or directly onto the siding and no boxes.
Just from experience coming in behind someone else that did rough in after the insulation and sheetrock was in and GC said there was suppose to be a wire there somewhere for the bath sconce. It wasn't where he thought it was and actually the end was buried in the spray foam insulation. So I can appreciate the idea that it must be terminated in a box before closing wall, but I can also appreciate that sometimes the HO cant make up their minds where they want the lights. And definitely don't want the circuit energized with a wire floating in a wall, seen that too, someone was going to put a light in and forgot.
Buck Parrish said:
Thanks for asking. He said that was alright with cat flex. His concern is the boxes.
He thinks the NEC says " No Renovation boxes allowed on new construction"
I told him to show me in the NEC or in local amendments. He got mad.
Click to expand...
There are restrictions related to product used in new construction vs remodel, but not the one he is referencing. 1 is free floating (no staples) in wall with NM, allowed under code for renovation or fishing a new light in an existing space. Another those inline splice kits that originally developed in mobile home use that are now allowed to extend a branch line without a box, can only be used in an existing completed home but not on an open wall remodel.
To his point, an old work box is not prohibited, but how are you getting the cable secured to the framing member within the requirements of 334.30 of 12 inches. He wouldn't be able to verify that requirement be met after the wall closed.
Another might be thinking of the requirements in 406.5 "that boxes or assemblies be securely fastened in place....."
Both items if he is taking these as the reason it's being a bit picky, but it says what it says. And 406.5 has as part of it a caveat that unless otherwise permitted elsewhere in the code.
 
I don't know that zigzagged wires are really supposed to be approved, either. The book mentions wires run alongside and parallel to framing members, and bored through holes.

Really, I think it just comes down to a need for better planning. I have two remodeling contractors who used to insist I just leave a wire in the wall and yse a cut-in box later. I told them both to take a hike. Get me a center measurement and I'll make sure it's exact.

Sometimes they like to say the customer doesn't know what they want yet. My reply is that I shouldn't be wiring something if they don't even know what the heck they want. Get a plan before the work gets done. It's not that hard
 
James L said:
I can certainly see requiring a box for vanity light. I've seen way too many that are stubbed through the sheetrock, then a swivel bracket mounted with Zip-its.

If I was an inspector, I would tell people that I'm not buying that nonsense. I would want to see a rough in box fixed in place or I wouldn't pass it
Click to expand...


Not all fixtures require a box. This is absolute nonsense. I agree that should be a box, in fact, I require to know what fixtures are used or at least where they will be mounted. It is a gamble as some fixtures take a switch box and others require a round box.

I just don't see how you can enforce capping the wire during rough in. That is absolutely absurd... and unnecessary.
 
Buck Parrish said:
So my main question to all is . "Does the NEC specifically indicate that pop-in or renovation boxes can not be used on new construction" ?
The inspector said that I need to prove to him that it does not specifically say that. Because he thinks it does.
Click to expand...

I have never herd of that. besides, you don't have to prove anything to him. He is supposed to write you a violation notice and cite the code article etc.
 
This is why MA requires every electrical inspector to be a licensed electrician. They have to go to the same code update classes we do + a separate class for inspectors I believe.

Ct some of the smaller towns have "Building Inspectors" who inspect everything
 
Buck Parrish said:
Can any one show me where in the NEC it says pop in boxes are not allowed in new construction ?
I asked the inspector for a code refetence. He could not give me one.
He said I have to proove in right.
Click to expand...
How you supposed to prove what it says when it doesn't say anything about what is in question?

If he claims it says so then why can't he tell you where it says so?

Another inspector with a god complex.
 
Buck, NC will not allow a pop in box for a fixture when it is in the ceiling. I don't understand why as some are still listed for 10 pounds
 
The rules for inspections are not covered in the NEC, so no matter what you will find no relief there.

I would be willing to bet that somewhere the AHJ has published what they are expecting to see for each level of inspection. You should probably get a copy of that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top