Inspectors required to cite code section

Status
Not open for further replies.
ivsenroute said:
I guess what I am seeing on the posts in this board are people who think that a write up is not legitimate without a code citation and that simply is not true. Look it up yourself and you will learn why you failed or prove the inspector wrong.
Click to expand...

I guess I don't see those posts the same way as you. Most complaints I see on this forum of not having a code cited are because either:

(1) the poster who is complaining is correct, there is no code written that supports the inspector's write-up, and we all would like to hear that inspector's substantiation, or
(2) the inspector should be able to cite the code violated, if asked, (either on site or after research), or
(3) the inspector attempts to use 90.4 to cover their lack of being able to cite a valid code provision.

In essence, I don't feel they are saying it is not valid without citing the violation on the rejection, but that it shouldn't be valid if the inspector or AHJ cannot or will not cite the code that they say is being violated. After all, aren't all parties interested in the same end result - a safe, code-compliant installation?

kent
 
Last edited:
Ohio requires the inspector to list the code violation.

Now is it required 'when' you are failed or is it required if the EC asks for it?

I can not find a reference, however we are taught in class that we must provide a code reference.
 
I've had disagreements with inspectors, which led to discussions, but I've never had an argument with one. There's no reason for one.

I believe we are (or should be) working together toward a common goal: a safe, compliant, and well-performing electrical installation.

We should be able to find the code section covering the issue, and there's no reason for an inspcetor to refuse to provide one. Just talk.
 
Here in CA there is an Assembly Bill 1236 (Section 19870 or the California Health and Safety Code).

To comply with Section 19780 of the CHSC, the inspector shall document the following information when issuing a Correction Notice or Notice of Violation:

  • A written description of the violation
  • The code section of the violation
This law also requires the enforcement official's supervisor to review and approve (or deny) an inspector's determination when the contractor or his/her agent asserts that the correction results in a cost of 10% or more of the overall cost of the project.
 
ivsenroute said:
Where in the NFPA 70 is there a requirement for electrical inspectors to cite a code reference when they fail an installation?
Click to expand...

The Code is just out there. It is offered by the NFPA as a collection and compendium of electrical rules to assure Fire safety originally. By itself it can be looked at as any other technical documents. It has NO power whatsoever.

When a legislative body comes along and decides to ADAPT the NEC, THEN by that power it can become a regulation that MUST be followed by individuals and organizations that the legislation defines. It can also exempt certain groups or organizations, like army, offshore operations, railroad, mines, etc.

When the Code is adopted in your state and applicable to YOUR specific installation then you have to see:
1.What exceptions or additions the State listed as conditions of adoption.(Some states refuse to adopt certain AFCI options, etc.)
2.Your County legislation can not over-ride the State adopted statutes, BUT it can add additional restrictions,
3.So can your city or town building department or whoever is in charge can ADD to it.
4.The inspector has to stand sound on ANY parts of the above established rules and inform you of the specific problems accordingly in order for his challenge to stand up in court.
5.It is the Contractor's responsibility to be KNOWLEDGEABLE of all of the above, not just the NEC, so he may not install something - in good faith - that would be in violation not necessarily the NEC, but any of the other rules.
 
weressl said:
The Code is just out there. It is offered by the NFPA as a collection and compendium of electrical rules to assure Fire safety originally. By itself it can be looked at as any other technical documents. It has NO power whatsoever.

When a legislative body comes along and decides to ADAPT the NEC, THEN by that power it can become a regulation that MUST be followed by individuals and organizations that the legislation defines. It can also exempt certain groups or organizations, like army, offshore operations, railroad, mines, etc.

When the Code is adopted in your state and applicable to YOUR specific installation then you have to see:
1.What exceptions or additions the State listed as conditions of adoption.(Some states refuse to adopt certain AFCI options, etc.)
2.Your County legislation can not over-ride the State adopted statutes, BUT it can add additional restrictions,
3.So can your city or town building department or whoever is in charge can ADD to it.
4.The inspector has to stand sound on ANY parts of the above established rules and inform you of the specific problems accordingly in order for his challenge to stand up in court.
5.It is the Contractor's responsibility to be KNOWLEDGEABLE of all of the above, not just the NEC, so he may not install something - in good faith - that would be in violation not necessarily the NEC, but any of the other rules.
Click to expand...

Ahhhhh, New Jersey!! Land of the UNIFORM Construction Code! Not that the occasional AHJ doesn't try, but it's one code and one code only wherever you are in NJ.
 
Fix it or don't I don't care.

Fix it or don't I don't care.

It is going to be my signature on the line that says the work completed meets regulatory requirements.
I don't care if you fix it or not, but, if you don't you will not get my signature on that line and you will not get a C.O.
We have different responsibilities, the contractor is responsible for a correct installation, on time, within budget, and done safely. As an inspector my responsibility is to ensure the installation has been done according to the regulatory agencies guidelines. Unfortunately this can at times put us at opposite ends of the spectrum, but we must not forget what our individual responsibilities are.
 
KentAT said:
(2) the inspector should be able to cite the code violated, if asked, (either on site or after research), or
Click to expand...

Could you imagine:

"Excuse me officer, might I ask why you pulled me over?

"Well, it seems to me that your vehicle doesn't look too safe to drive, let me go back to my vehicle to search some statutes to find out why that is."

What is this world coming to.:-?
 
LarryFine said:
I've had disagreements with inspectors, which led to discussions, but I've never had an argument with one. There's no reason for one.

I believe we are (or should be) working together toward a common goal: a safe, compliant, and well-performing electrical installation.
Click to expand...

Amen! Amen! Amen! It is all about a reaching a minimum amount safety for whomever utilizes the electrical at the structure. I cannot say it enough each time a contractor hohumms at an infraction.

As Larry probably already knows, in Virginia an inspector has 24 hours AFTER being asked to provide a code to come forth with one. I, however, always made time on the spot to provide one without due wait.

I used to include a code articles with each infraction on the violation notice, but a contractor complained that I was taking up too much of his manpowers time by leaving something for them for referencing. I was then asked to just list the infraction in most simple form and was handed the state article of the USBC that said I was to give simple and only provide code articles when requested. So, I started writing simple form and just orally stated the article where the person could find information, at the time of inspection.

So, with all that being said, the Virginia Uniform Statewide Building Code says an inspector shall give written notice of code violations and provide within 24hours after request from the violator, code sections of violation. (Not verbatim)
 
lunalilo said:
Could you imagine:

"Excuse me officer, might I ask why you pulled me over?

"Well, it seems to me that your vehicle doesn't look too safe to drive, let me go back to my vehicle to search some statutes to find out why that is."

What is this world coming to.:-?
Click to expand...

What do you think one of the things he does while he is sitting in the car writing your ticket? Yup he checks his cheat card for the correct law.:roll:
 
ivsenroute said:
Where in the NFPA 70 is there a requirement for electrical inspectors to cite a code reference when they fail an installation?
Click to expand...

The is usually covered in the USBC . It also says that the codes are only to be cited if requested ( atleast in Virginia's USBC ). However, I think you will find that most AHJ's require it by their inspectors...atleast we do in Richmond,VA and we will also in Alexandria,VA as I move to that location in june.
 
LarryFine said:
I've had disagreements with inspectors, which led to discussions, but I've never had an argument with one. There's no reason for one.

I believe we are (or should be) working together toward a common goal: a safe, compliant, and well-performing electrical installation.

We should be able to find the code section covering the issue, and there's no reason for an inspcetor to refuse to provide one. Just talk.
Click to expand...

Wise Man........I will miss you fella even if I did only meet you one time..;)
 
as an inspector i believe it is always the job to explain or debate the code if asked. of course the electrician must have his book with him. if you want to debate or understand the violation be prepared. i have found that the more i debate and dicuss violations the more i understand about the violation and the requirements that make it a violation. good luck.
 
joebell said:
I'ld have to respectfully disagree with this notion Mark.

I'll agree with the code being the minimum standard but if the installation follows that requirement there should be no reason for a citation. It's really black and white an installation is either code compliant or it isn't. Once we allow personal judgement to influence the inspection process it will make the process subjective and open to each individauls interpretation.
Click to expand...


This is what you have now. You may well get ten responders on here to disagree. Take away the human element and you will only have one interpretation; the guy that programed the robot. He knows not a damn thing about the NEC.:D
 
ivsenroute said:
If you request a code reference then you should be given one by the inspector.
Click to expand...


Face it folks, most of the time if you are cited for a violation you already know what code it is that you violated.

What I'm saying its that most things that are found on a job are just small things that were overlooked. When you see it written up you say to yourself , "How the Heck did I miss that".:)
 
Code Cite

Code Cite

Here in the People's Repiblic of Mass. its stated in our Mass. general Laws Chapter 143 " A notice of disapproval shall contain specifications of the part of the work disapproved, together with a reference to the rule or regulation of the Board of Fire Prevention regulations which has been violated" the inspector of wires shall, within 5 days of such notification give written notice of his approval or disapproval of said work.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top