Inspectors :roll:

[220/221]

Inspectors :roll:

Small bath remodel. We added a recep from the existing 15 amp bath recep circuit. This surprised me because the house was built in '96 and I thought the 20 amp bath circuit was adopted in the early 90's.

Anyway.........inspector red tags it. He wants a 20 amp circuit. I am not n the job ro argue the point so the GC tell the HO there will be a change order. We go back (40 minute drive one way) and install a new 20 amp circuit.

GC is a good client so we do it at cost. 3 hours total work and 1.5 hours drive time was about $400.

Recalled for inspection and another inspector shows up and says "Why did you run a new circuit? Extending an existing circuit is no problem at all".

I need the work but I HATE HATE HATE wasting resources.

Who was right? I was certain that we are allowed to extend existing circuits and would have argued the point had I been there but on these small jobs we are almost never there.

 

[infinity]

I don't know who was right. In Az it might be a coin toss. Here in NJ that would likely fall under the rehab code and the 15 amp would be acceptable.

 

[electricmanscott]

Hmmm. I say new receptacle=current code. 20a GFCI protected.

If you are allowed to extend circuits and create a violation then you could theoretically throw the code out the window for any remodel type work.

 

[celtic]

Who was right? I was certain that we are allowed to extend existing circuits and would have argued the point had I been there but on these small jobs we are almost never there.

That depends....if you have a "Rehab Code" similar to NJ ~ the 2nd guy was right.

Does Az. have a similar standard?

 

[emahler]

Hmmm. I say new receptacle=current code. 20a GFCI protected.

If you are allowed to extend circuits and create a violation then you could theoretically throw the code out the window for any remodel type work.

yep, that's new germany for you...the rehab code is license to avoid the code...

 

[celtic]

Hmmm. I say new receptacle=current code. 20a GFCI protected.

If you are allowed to extend circuits and create a violation then you could theoretically throw the code out the window for any remodel type work.

The gist of the rehab code is: No worse than it was. No less safe.

A 15A bathroom ckt, while an inconvenience if tripped, will not cause the house to spontaneously combust, killing everyone in the tri-county area.

 

[celtic]

yep, that's new germany for you...the rehab code is license to avoid the code...

When you know the rules.....

 

[infinity]

Who would have thought that they actually could come up with a code that employs good common sense. :roll:

 

[mcclary's electrical]

In Va, you would have to put this on a 20 amp bath circuit. Code requires 1 minimum, and they did not have that. You're getting the bathroom inspected. So that means that the one you installed is not up to code. You were wrong to make this a change order, you should have ate it, because you missed it to start with.

 

[M. D.]

The gist of the rehab code is: No worse than it was. No less safe.

A 15A bathroom ckt, while an inconvenience if tripped, will not cause the house to spontaneously combust, killing everyone in the tri-county area.

I thought the reason we have NEC was the practical safegaurding of people and things ,... if there was no safeguarding going on ,.. then why change the code in the first place ,..if there was safeguarding involved in the code change why would you want to extend something that has deemed something we need to safeguard against ??

In Ma. we have rule #3 ,.. I'm to tired to find it ,.. perhaps Scott will post it. ,.. goes like this ,...you can add as long as it does not cause a violation or magnify an existing one

 

[celtic]

I thought the reason we have NEC was the practical safegaurding of people and things ,... if there was no safeguarding going on ,.. then why change the code in the first place ,..if there was safeguarding involved in the code change why would you want to extend something that has deemed something we need to safeguard against ??

In Ma. we have rule #3 ,.. I'm to tired to find it ,.. perhaps Scott will post it. ,.. goes like this ,...you can add as long as it does not cause a violation or magnify an existing one

Read this:
Rules That Make Sense?New Jersey's Rehabilitation Subcode

Why We Have A Rehabilitation Subcode
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In 1996, local construction offices in New Jersey issued building permits authorizing work that had an estimated cost of over $7 billion. Additions and alterations of existing structures accounted for about 47% of this amount. This is a much higher percentage than in most other states. Rehabilitation work is most pronounced in New Jersey's cities where conversions and rehabilitation projects have an integral role in the creation of decent, affordable housing. In Newark, for example, about $3 out of every $4 included in the estimated cost of construction authorized by permit in 1996 was for work on existing houses. In Trenton, housing rehabilitation work outpaced new housing construction by more than 14 to one.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]New Jersey has an old housing stock, which means that rehabilitation and conversions play a critical role in state, local, for-profit, and nonprofit efforts to expand the supply of affordable housing. Half of the state's 3.1 million houses were built before 1959. In Hudson and Essex, the counties with the state's two largest cities, the median year for houses is 1941 and 1949, respectively. New Jersey also has many older nonresidential buildings that are vacant or under-utilized and are good candidates for adaptive re-use.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Existing buildings that were built to comply with an earlier building code or with no code are often still safe and sound. Most existing buildings throughout the United States, including those in New Jersey, are in this category. With a few exceptions, these buildings continue to be occupied, used, and maintained. New Jersey has strong retrofit codes that apply to all existing buildings and ensure their safety. It is no longer logical that a building which can remain unimproved must be upgraded in numerous respects, many of which provide very little safety improvement, simply because the owner elects to improve the building. This approach often deters any improvement.
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Follow the link for the full story.
[/FONT]

 

[ivsenroute]

Should have been a 20A.

You can change out the existing 15A but not extend it into the bathroom, you are immediately into new requirement territory when you ADD a receptacle.

 

[iwire]

Yeah MA and NJs rules are really helping out 220/221.:grin:


IMO as far as the NEC is concerned 'new is new'.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I wouldn't make you change it to 20 amps since it was an existing bathroom. I tend to believe that more laws create more criminals.

 

[mikeames]

I wouldn't make you change it to 20 amps since it was an existing bathroom. I tend to believe that more laws create more criminals.

Exactly, to change to a 20 someone would have to run back to the panel. So a job that entails just the bathroom now entails ripping walls appart throughout the house. Its obvious to see why some would say forget it, not pull a permitt and do it the way they say fit. (Path of least resistance) Why not make the path of least resistance easy and safe by allowing the 15a extension tot he existing circuit. Nusiance tripping is the worst case here.

 

[growler]

I wouldn't make you change it to 20 amps since it was an existing bathroom. I tend to believe that more laws create more criminals.

That doesn't really matter now does it? Just because an inspector lets a contractor get away with something doesn't make it a legal install.

Unless special permission is issued in writing just what proof is there that the job meets code. What if the inspector that turned a blind eye drops dead tomorrow? An inspector is not the AHJ, even the building code official is not really the AHJ, they are just temporarily holding the position. The AHJ is really a government body that is created to enforce the building standards and doesn't end when the person that holds that position either leaves the job or expires. Inspectors may come and go but the government body ( the entity) remains.

If someone shoots the president the office of president doesn't end, we just find a new idiot to sit in the chair and life goes on. None of our laws are dependent on any one person. People come and go but the laws remain.

 

[elohr46]

Inspectors :roll:

Small bath remodel. We added a recep from the existing 15 amp bath recep circuit. This surprised me because the house was built in '96 and I thought the 20 amp bath circuit was adopted in the early 90's.

Anyway.........inspector red tags it. He wants a 20 amp circuit. I am not n the job ro argue the point so the GC tell the HO there will be a change order. We go back (40 minute drive one way) and install a new 20 amp circuit.

GC is a good client so we do it at cost. 3 hours total work and 1.5 hours drive time was about $400.

Recalled for inspection and another inspector shows up and says "Why did you run a new circuit? Extending an existing circuit is no problem at all".

I need the work but I HATE HATE HATE wasting resources.

Who was right? I was certain that we are allowed to extend existing circuits and would have argued the point had I been there but on these small jobs we are almost never there.

I don't know who is right or who is wrong but I always thought that the purpose of a remodel was to make things better, extending old 15 amp circuits when 20 amps is better (and the current code) seems like a waste of the HO's money. If your not going to make it better why improve in the first place?

 

[mikeames]

I don't know who is right or who is wrong but I always thought that the purpose of a remodel was to make things better, extending old 15 amp circuits when 20 amps is better (and the current code) seems like a waste of the HO's money. If your not going to make it better why improve in the first place?

With that logic though you should then rewire the whole thing in emt and put it on AFCI because it may be considered a better install. A remodeled bathroom is generally for astetics.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Was he required to install a fan in the bathroom as per the mechanical code? It's required now even if the bathroom has an openable window.

He was not installing a required branch circuit, he was simply extending an existing circuit.

You don't have to bring all of the other wiring of a house up to current code when you're doing a service change, why would you have to bring it up to current code simply because you were moving an outlet over? Other than putting in a GFCI receptacle.

And please read the definition of AHJ.

 

[iwire]

With that logic though you should then rewire the whole thing in emt and put it on AFCI because it may be considered a better install. A remodeled bathroom is generally for astetics.

It is what it is, a new outlet needs to meet current code, if the current code requires pipe it should be installed, if the current code requires AFCIs they should be provided. THe NEC has no wording to allow a new installation not to meet the existing code.

Where I am and apparently in NJ as well laws have been put in place to allow this but if there is no such law the inspector should be enforcing the current NEC.