Inspectors :roll:

[iwire]

Was he required to install a fan in the bathroom as per the mechanical code? It's required now even if the bathroom has an openable window.

Don't know don't care.

He was not installing a required branch circuit, he was simply extending an existing circuit.

Every part of it that was not there before is new work.

You don't have to bring all of the other wiring of a house up to current code when you're doing a service change,

Your not installing new branch circuits so of course they are old work,

why would you have to bring it up to current code simply because you were moving an outlet over?

Because it's new work.

Other than putting in a GFCI receptacle.

Oh .... so we only have to meet the code in some respects but not others.:grin:

And please read the definition of AHJ.

Are you the AHJ or an inspector?

If you are the AHJ would you provide written special permission?

 

[Power Tech]

Personally I think it was a good move to put the 20 amp ckt in. I have had bad luck leaving a 15 a circuit in the bath.

If there is a woman in the house, overload is likely.

I left an inaccessible 15 amp ckt in a bathroom with the customers permission. I told him I would have to run EMT from the panel. He said if it will be the same cost later lets leave it. I just ran the conduit with a new circuit, 3 months later.

We use a lot more power than in the (good?) old days.

 

[M. D.]

Where I am and apparently in NJ as well laws have been put in place to allow this but if there is no such law the inspector should be enforcing the current NEC.

I'm not so sure rule 3 would allow this .
How does adding an outlet not magnify the exsisting violation?
How does adding a bathroom receptacle outlet on a 15 amp circuit not create a violation?

 

[sameguy]

The OP said he added a recept. on the recept. circuit. If it was a 3 gang box sw/sw/gfi-
turned the two sw into a duplex sw and then added a recept. onto the load side of the gfi
that was there would he need to pull new home run????????

 

[mcclary's electrical]

The OP said he added a recept. on the recept. circuit. If it was a 3 gang box sw/sw/gfi-
turned the two sw into a duplex sw and then added a recept. onto the load side of the gfi
that was there would he need to pull new home run????????

Yes. If no other 20 is present, yes.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Question?

Since when does new mean old?

New is new!

 

[electricmanscott]

I'm not so sure rule 3 would allow this .
How does adding an outlet not magnify the exsisting violation?
How does adding a bathroom receptacle outlet on a 15 amp circuit not create a violation?

I agree.

Was the receptacle and it's wiring there before? No. It's new and has to be done to current code. Simple.

 

[growler]

We added a recep from the existing 15 amp bath recep circuit.

Anyway.........inspector red tags it. He wants a 20 amp circuit.

Recalled for inspection and another inspector shows up and says "Why did you run a new circuit? Extending an existing circuit is no problem at all".

Ok so we have two inspectors with different views on the matter. One says it's a violation and the other says that it's OK.

If the inspector has a problem with running the new circuit he shouldn't ask why a new circuit was ran he should ask why the first inspector failed the job. At this point the head electrical inspector ( the boss ) for the area should have been consulted. Whatever the policy for this inspection department is, it should be determined at this point so there are not a lot of personal opinions floating around, there should be a standard that is acceptable to everyone.

It's my experience that when consulted the head man tends to go with the more strict interpretation of the code, not wanting to stick his neck out. If they don't know about it they don't care but once consulted they don't like to give any sort of permission to over-ride the code. Some of the guys in the field tend to be a little more lax at times, they like being known as nice guys.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Ok so we have two inspectors with different views on the matter. One says it's a violation and the other says that it's OK.

If the inspector has a problem with running the new circuit he shouldn't ask why a new circuit was ran he should ask why the first inspector failed the job. At this point the head electrical inspector ( the boss ) for the area should have been consulted. Whatever the policy for this inspection department is, it should be determined at this point so there are not a lot of personal opinions floating around, there should be a standard that is acceptable to everyone.

It's my experience that when consulted the head man tends to go with the more strict interpretation of the code, not wanting to stick his neck out. If they don't know about it they don't care but once consulted they don't like to give any sort of permission to over-ride the code. Some of the guys in the field tend to be a little more lax at times, they like being known as nice guys.

HOw could they?:roll:

 

[cpal]

It is what it is, a new outlet needs to meet current code, if the current code requires pipe it should be installed, if the current code requires AFCIs they should be provided. THe NEC has no wording to allow a new installation not to meet the existing code.

Where I am and apparently in NJ as well laws have been put in place to allow this but if there is no such law the inspector should be enforcing the current NEC.

Bob
If your referring to rule 3 I for one do not agree. All new wiring should (in general) comply with the current Code requirments. You could possibly leave the existing wiring but the extension should be new and it should be a 20 A Ckt. If the room is a gut and the existing wiring is in a state of decay I would suggest removal and install all new. There is always a liability argument. but that is also a business choice.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Are you the AHJ or an inspector?

I'm not an inspector, I'm the electrical inspector. See FPN for AHJ.

If you are the AHJ would you provide written special permission?

Signing the job card and permit is written permission.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Are you the AHJ or an inspector?

I'm not an inspector, I'm the electrical inspector. See FPN for AHJ.

If you are the AHJ would you provide written special permission?

Signing the job card and permit is written permission.

Way i view inspectors is they look at many many hours of work in usually far less than 1 hour and often as little as 5 minutes ( had some that never got out of truck). There signature only means they did not see any violations of NEC. It by no means is a warranty of a wiring job that complies. Any and all mistakes are on the EC. Many will not even go to the roof if i am there to to tell them what and how i installed (not hiding anything as it will be to code).
Inspectors are not who they go after if we have a fire.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I will give you that we don't spend as much time on the job as you do and sometimes not as much as we need to, but I do look at every single job I have, nothing gets signed off with out me seeing it, now I may miss something, but I do look.

Here if there is a fire, I can tell you that we would be sitting right next to you at the table, we may have a different lawyer, but we'll be at the same table. The laws protect us to a point, but we are by no means held harmless.

Oh and just to satisfy myself I talked to the building official and he said the the wiring up to the box would be legal nonconforming so he didn't see any problem with then just extending the wiring and considering it a hardship, using some judgement of course (panel on other side of the wall, conduit in walls, etc).

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I agree it is no hazard beyond what we already had and don't see the 15 as a hazard of fire or shock but it is new wiring and needs to meet code unless your under rehab laws. By allowing it your creating an unfair situation that low bidder did not know better and the EC that follows code lost the job.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

How about just installing the extension part of the circuit with 12awg

Here's my take on it. If there was a damaged receptacle on the 15a circuit would you replace it? If you would than there isn't a large enough difference between that and extending the circuit to say one is right and the other is wrong.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

How about just installing the extension part of the circuit with 12awg

Here's my take on it. If there was a damaged receptacle on the 15a circuit would you replace it? If you would than there isn't a large enough difference between that and extending the circuit to say one is right and the other is wrong.

Big differance ,one is called repairing other is called adding. First is legal.

 

[joebell]

The key here is the receptacle was added, not an existing receptacle that was relocated.

Because it was added it must comply with the current addition of the NEC 210.11(C)(3). To simply "tap" an existing 15 amp circuit would be a violation.

 

[LarryFine]

So a job that entails just the bathroom now entails ripping walls appart throughout the house.

You don't do much wall-fishing, I take it?

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

Big differance ,one is called repairing other is called adding. First is legal.

some might say that repairing a circuit (replacing recep) without correct the violation is a no no also.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

How about just installing the extension part of the circuit with 12awg

Here's my take on it. If there was a damaged receptacle on the 15a circuit would you replace it? If you would than there isn't a large enough difference between that and extending the circuit to say one is right and the other is wrong.

You're allowed to change devices witout a permit. You cannot, however, legally add an outlet without one.