Inspectors vs electricians,plumbers, etc

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Bob NH

Senior Member
Rob DiVita said:
. . . . Nonetheless, I will always defer to the licensed electrician with a simple request that he/ she make a statment re-inforcing the validity of his work so that it won't come back to me when the next contractor comes along ( often just itching to impress the homeowner how much more he knows that the installation contractor ) and says he can't believe the inspector let the issue go with no statement of safety or defect regarding the issue. . . . Best to all, Rob DiVita
Rob,
I think the sentence quoted above, which was substantially the same in your original post, indicates the essence of the problem.

If you accept a statement from anyone, including a licensed electrician or an engineer or anyone else, as the basis for passing something that you know is in significant noncompliance with the code, then you are inviting them to continue to present you with the same kind of issues in the future.

A statement from the electrician that something is OK will not really cover you if the installation is wrong, but it could make people suspect your qualifications or diligence if there is ever cause for investigation of a problem.

You are the inspector. You are responsible for knowing the code. You neither need nor want someone telling you that what is wrong is really right.

You get what you accept. You must write up those situations or you will continue to get the same.

You can't do your job if you fear getting fired for doing it right.
 

Rob DiVita

Member
Location
Florida
Roger, Bob, Brian - I understand what you are saying. And I don't think you are bullying or picking on me at all. Until the state recognizes the need for legislation, I know that we are all goiing to be thought of merely as observers by the local trade. The only thing that galls me is that, frankly, I've been doing this for longer than most of the local trade, and probably have a more diversified knowledge than most when it comes to buildings and components. I couldn't even list all my educational qualifications at this point, because after so many years in this business in one form or another, I can't even remember them all. ( Though one of my fondest was when I was hired as an independent inspection consultant working for the television series "THIS OLD HOUSE" during thier Miami project after hurricane Andrew )
NAHI and ASHI are trying very hard to get the state interested--they are the strongest promotors of a regulatory government body right now.
The funny thing is I know many inspectors who retain thier specific contractor licensing in the field they are most qualified for, and yet hassles still happen to them when they write a critique of another's work--even if they happen to be licensed in the same field. It is very clear that local contractors assume, no matter how qualified the inspector is, that because the state doesn't license us we are to be ( sometimes, certainly not all ) relegated to "amateur" status.
Up until last year, the state looked favorably on home inspectors who had their WDO card holder status. This allowed the home inspector to also acertain if termites, powder post beetles, wood rot ( fungus ) etc conditions existed in the structure. I was a card holder for 10 years. It made more sense for the inspector, who could and should be at ths home site for 2 hours on average ( at least ) , to look for WDO than having the prospective buyer hire a separate pest control company come in. The pest guy usually would be there for 20 minutes, often asking the home inspector if he could borrow his ladder to go in the attic, then he'd write a standard WDO form and charge the buyer a fee double or triple what the home inspector would have charged while he was at the home anyway.
The problem was the pest control guys thought we were stealing business from them. So they hired a powerful lobby group to convince the state that this was not a legal way of doing WDO inspections. Next thing you know, the state levies fines on any home inspector doing WDO's if he is not using a separate vehicle for his WDO's or does not separate the payment from the home inspection payment ( the vehicle must be licensed separately, have separate signage, and the inspector must arrive in each separate car, but cannot combine the 2 inspections ). It was crazy. In all the timne I did WDO's, I never had a single complaint nor had to go back a second time for something I missed.
So I don't do WDO reports anymore. It seems silly that now I have to refer a pest control guy, who charges the client more than he would have paid me, and most importantly, the inspector should always be a disinterested third party, and not someone there who can offer "a great deal on a termite treatment " when no current evidence of termites has been found. But that's what the state wants, and woe is the buyer who meets up with the unscrupulous pest control guy who is bent on selling them his services whether they need it or not. Fortunately, I refer a great contractor who has been nothing but honest with my clients.
In some areas of Florida, you absolutely must be a Gen contractor to perform inspections. This was decided by county commissioners. They simply don't understand how it can be a conflict of interest when it just so happens that the guy doing your inspection can also do the work for you, too. This happened to my mother. She sold her house, and lo and behold, the guy doing the inspection was a GC who offered to fix some wood rot around her decorative front trellis for the low, low price of only $3000 --and he was angry when I found another GC who did it for $300-saving my elderly mother 90% of the cost.( Is that math right ? )
I have learned a lot from this web site, and I owe it to the guys who respond to questions here with the utmost integrity and intention to help. Anytime a query requires an honest response, it seems to be here. And if and when the state understands it's share of responsibility and determines that there must be testing and educational requirements to be in my business, I will be lined up to apply. Maybe then those in this business who should not be will be eliminated, and the field will be more respected. Until then, I think each inspector should be taken individually by those working as contractors, just like we do when we are exposed to those same contractors.
Thank you all.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Rob, were you a novelist in a past life? :D

Nice post. It's always interesting to see how the real world plays out sometimes, even if it's a bit depressing.

Bob NH said:
You get what you accept. You must write up those situations or you will continue to get the same.
Bob, I'm right with you, right up until you make this statement. How is a home inspector, who inspects years after the original installer's warranty has expired, going to walk in to better installations by writing them up more fully?

Your comments make perfect sense for a gov't building inspector, who is inspecting at a time when the original installer depends on his/her approval to complete the job and get paid; but if the project is complete and signed off, and resided in for years, there is no impetus for the original installer to return and make an installation better because a HI says so. :-?
 

Bob NH

Senior Member
georgestolz said:
Bob, I'm right with you, right up until you make this statement. How is a home inspector, who inspects years after the original installer's warranty has expired, going to walk in to better installations by writing them up more fully?

Your comments make perfect sense for a gov't building inspector, who is inspecting at a time when the original installer depends on his/her approval to complete the job and get paid; but if the project is complete and signed off, and resided in for years, there is no impetus for the original installer to return and make an installation better because a HI says so. :-?
George,
It matters not what your position is. If you are an inspector of anything, and you let yourself get rolled over contrary to what is right, you are going to get rolled over time and time again, and you deserve it.
 

JohnJ0906

Senior Member
Location
Baltimore, MD
Its rare, in my experience, to have a home builder schedule enough time to make a super neat instalation. Usually, what I hear is "When will you be inspected? THAT LONG?!?" IMHO, tract housing builders have no intrest in neat. its all git-r-done, move to the next. If an EC bids to give time for neat, he probably wont get the job. Just my experience.
 

Bob NH

Senior Member
JohnJ0906 said:
Its rare, in my experience, to have a home builder schedule enough time to make a super neat instalation. Usually, what I hear is "When will you be inspected? THAT LONG?!?" IMHO, tract housing builders have no intrest in neat. its all git-r-done, move to the next. If an EC bids to give time for neat, he probably wont get the job. Just my experience.

I don't believe that the ultimate issue here is "neat". It is whether the job is to code, at least to the degree that it is safe and fully functional.

The inspectors job is to verify that it meets code, unless the discrepancies are concealed and can't be discovered. If it doesn't meet code, it should be written up, complete with citations of the sections of the code to which it doesn't comply.

Reporting the failures to meet the code requirements should not be affected by the inspector's susceptibility to pressure from the builder.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Bob NH said:
The inspectors job is to verify that it meets code, unless the discrepancies are concealed and can't be discovered. If it doesn't meet code, it should be written up, complete with citations of the sections of the code to which it doesn't comply.

Bob Home inspectors generally do not (and in some cases can not) cite codes as they are not code inspectors and have no authority to enforce anything.

Keep in mind that Rob DiVita is a private home inspector, the person you call when your buying a home and the bank wants a home inspection report.

This is so far from being a city or town inspector we should not even be comparing the two.

While a City or town inspector can only enforce the current code a home inspector can recommend bring an old home up to new standards.

Like they might note that the kitchen counter outlets in this old house are not GFCI protected.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I am a little familiar with a Home inspection association called NACHI

Here is a small part of their standards of practice.


3. Limitations, Exceptions & Exclusions

3.2. Exclusions:

I. The inspectors are not required to determine:

H. The compliance with codes or regulations.

The whole thing can be seen here

NACHI Standards of Practice

I think that some of the other Home Inspector Organizations have similar polices.
 

allenwayne

Senior Member
The only requirement in Florida to open a home inspector business is a $35.00 occupational license.You can print a few cards advertise in a local paper and for under a $100.00 be in business.Sorry but i am not a real fan of HI`s.Some of the stuff they write up is outdated codes or just plain silly.Had one write up slots in plate screws in bathroom should be horizontal and not vertical so as not to allow condensation to enter the switch.Had one in the 02 cycle insist that a receptacle within 6 feet of the laundry sink be gfci protected.

I agree that the field should be regulated but some of the OP`S original violations should have never passed the jurisdictions inspections in the first place.To have some of these pass is well just scary to say the least.I have in the past well lets say griped about the nit picking our inspectors do.But in hind sight I guess they were doing the best job they could as we should.All the inspectors as well as the contractors in the applicable fields need to meet on a happy medium.Contractor does the job , inspector inspects for code compliance.

I am a lover of a neat as a pin job, but a neat as a pin job doesn`t do any better than a sloppy code compliant job.As George stated once it is drywalled it all looks the same.

Now once you get into double lugged breakers and different gauge grounding conductors under a single lug,flying splices that have passed a jurisdictions inspection well I might have to be a whistle blower.

If you feel that strongly about what you found on a jurisdictions inspected home do you want to chance losing all further business, by opening a can of worms ???? Guess you either live with it or not :)
 
Bob (from NH)

I am in total agreement with your statements about electrical inspectors. If in fact one cannot handle the heat, it is time to get out of the kitchen. (I use to hear that phrase many years ago)

It is not hard to make a difficult inspection, as long as one knows the actual code and can cite it.

In NY, the real problem is the lack of good inspectors and no enforcement of the electrical inspection process.
 

dlhoule

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
Code:
The beauty of the forum is multiple perspectives, I share Michael's desire for you to return and visit.

I also share this view.

Now my viewpoint. We have excellent people in all walks of life, be it inspectors (of any kind), engineers, law makers (though very few here), electricians, police, fire, and etc.. However, we also have just as many poor unscrupulous people doing these same jobs. We have inconsistancies from one jurisdiction to another in many cases. We have the NEC adopted by some states or jurisdictions in its entirety with no amendments, but not by others.

We have some areas that do a great job of enforcing the NEC and others that don't. As long as there is money to be made by doing poor (and in some cases unsafe) work); we will keep the status quo. In many instances there is little or no penalty for not going by the rules. How many prosecutions do you see for not having permits? It has to be somewhat difficult for people wanting to do things correctly to be competitive when the playing field is not level.

Me, I'll continue to try to get along with people from each profession and to do the best job I can. I'll continue trying to make things better by pointing out unsafe situations or conditions.

I have given up on my dream of a perfect world. After all I found out that I am not even close to being perfect. Just ask my wife, she'll agree with me on this.:)
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
Larry I have always believed with what you stated about good and bad in all walks of life.

But please tell me my lawyer and cardiologist is in on the good side. Cause if I die from a heart attack I sure do not want to be in jail at the time
 

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
brian john said:
A foreman I use to work for, always said " Why is there never enough money in the job to do it right the first time, but there is always money to come back to redo the screw ups when they appear on the punch list?"

AMEN Brian. If everyone had this attitude, life in general would be much better.
 

Rob DiVita

Member
Location
Florida
Final thoughts {mine alone !]

Final thoughts {mine alone !]

Interesting views and statements. Again, I am not pro-inspection at the expense of "being reasonable". Never.
I do not mean to make a statement or "novel" and run, I know a lot of you review opinions and code discussions here frequently, and I don't mean to eat and run. Between home, business, family, hobbies and report writing, I wish I had more time to talk on this site.
At one time, I was hired to work for the federal government in the field of subsidized housing inspections. Basically, we would go into an apartment sub development and review the landlord's ability to keep the sites safe and secure for his tenants, most of whom received government money to go towards thier rent. It was called the REAC program, which meant "reverse auction bla bla bla". In a nutshell, we would bid on these inspections, and whoever gave the lowest bid got the job. Sounds complicated, huh? Whatever company could do it for less was hired. So, the money would trickle down from the government agency who cold called area inspection services ( such as InspectionOne and US Inspect )and review thier back ground education, area licensing , any certifications, etc. From them it went to a middle man contractor, then to the Home Inspection owner, and finally to the actual inspector. At the time, I worked for the largest Florida home inspection service. By the time the money got to me, of the $1600.00 per inspection site, I got $400.00. The fact that I had the highest accreditation, the longest number of years on the job, etc did not matter. If I was some local guy who worked for himself ,I would have made double.
I note the above because your level of experience of ability is not always the most important factor when you are in this field. The reason why the government even looked into the private sector to find the REAC inspectors was because, according to them, thier own government employed isnpectors would do "drive by" inspections - -some would not even leave thier office while writing up a negative inspection based on the assumption that the property was probably similar to the previous inspection report found it. Nice,huh ? Some of these sites had changed ownership 2 or 3 times and looked nothing like they had during the prior inspection.
The above is not all that dis-similar to what we sometimes find here in Florida. Many an electrician will state that the local building dept ok'd everything, and therefore the private home inspector should get lost. This opinion has been intimated here since I wrote my first "complaint" several days ago. The fact that there are some bad apples and the state has not got off it's collective butt to license us does not mean that we know less than the next guy, nor that our report is any less important. I will say again that codes are sometimes open to interpretation, whether that is agreed upon or not.
A short time ago, in the area I live, the county building / code dept manager was fired without explanation. This man was once contacted by me because I had a screen room built by a contractor who wrote an estimate that included a fee to file for the permit. He never pulled one. I called the owner of that company and complained, and emphasized the need for permit and code compliance. He actually said the words to me " Don't worry, we have the building dept head in our pocket, there'll be no problems down the road if that's what you're afraid of ".
Shocked, I called the dept head himself and was told not to worry about that particular issue. He is no longer employed in this county. He has been charged with taking money in exchange for bending the code and permitting rules, & giving local contractors "favors" -if compliance was considered at all.
I have inspected may a home that passed it's final roof inspection in which no ridge vent was installed when it was absoloutely needed. No ventilation other than soffit. When I called the building / code dept, I was told that though there is a mathematical formula for air flow and exhaust to determine where ridge vents are needed and where they are not, but no one actually knew what the formula was nor could they tell me how to find it. To this day, no one can answer that question for me. So if there is no ridge vent on a roof where no other hot air exhaust is provided ( such as gable end vents, turbine, electric fan, or especially none on an enclosed hip , where no gable vents can be installed ) I will state plainly that there should be one !
I will do the same as it appllies to electrical work, plumbing, HVAC, etc. And if the the contractor disagrees, as sometimes they vehemently do, too bad. My job is to warn the client of any pre-existing conditons that materially affect the structure, the safety of the home, etc. And though we plainly state that we are not there as code inspectors, sometimes there are exceptions.
Thank you all again for your thoughts and ideas. Best to all.
 

allenwayne

Senior Member
Not sure of where in Florida you are doing these home inspections.But in this area the building dept inspectors are hard as cut nails.They do a tremendous job as do the other inspectors.I know of several builders that have even hired private inspection firms to do the inspections so they can move on with the building process.Not saying they are doing a poor job of building but the inspectors are just that tough.

I have had several major issues with home inspectors in the past.One being they make statements they have no actual basis of backing up other than an opinion.This happening the home owner that has paid for the service they give thinks this guy/gal is my inspector and he/she knows what he/she is talking about.

Most home inspectors i know have zilch time in trade of any type.They take a course and open shop.Not saying this is your profile but, home inspectors don`t mean squat to me.Sorry if i offend you but this is my personal opinion.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I don't have major issues with home inspectors. Mostly they seem to not know all that much about any one system in a home, but seem to do a pretty good job of poking around looking for major problems.

Their credibility would be a lot higher if they would worry more about real problems then make believe problems.

Just having someone crawl around in the attic and crawl spaces can tell you a lot about a house, without nitpicking minor issues with individual systems.

Personally, I think home inspectors ought to do the following:

Plumbing:
Make sure all the faucets work and don't drip
Make sure hot water heaters work
No obvious leaks
Adequate water pressure and flow at all points of use

Electrical:
All outlets are powered (plug a lamp into every receptacle)
All lighting circuits function as do any ceiling fans, or other permanently connected stuff
No obvious problems like loose wires hanging out of boxes

Etc.

Trying to have a guy pretend he understands 5 or 6 trades, plus all the codes associated with them is absurd, and in practice does not work. If he existed, that guy is not going to be available to do home inspections for a few hundred dollars. He is worth way too much to waste on home inspections.
 

Rob DiVita

Member
Location
Florida
This is to AllenWayne-
I am sorry your experience with the inspection business apparently has been mostly bad. It is a shame that,rather than taking a person and his/her abilities on a one by one basis, your experience has been bad enough that you apparently have not recovered from it. Frankly, I know more than a few inspectors who may say the same about contractors in the electrical, plumb-ing,roofing,etc business and have just as strong a conviction about it as you do. This, again, is not meant to bait you , just a fact. Honestly,I believe that you have written many a fine response to queries, and I think I have used the knowledge you provided myself on occasion. My experience has been that, no matter who you ask a question of in life, there is always something you can learn from the answer given.
If you have noted my other statements, you will be aware that my business partner has been a member of IBEW, Plumber's and Pipefitter's union, and was an HVAC tech for 10 years working for the largest HVAC repair firm in the country. If you know anything about HVAC, you know you have to have a good working knowledge of both electrical as well as plumbing. Additionally, I have been in this business for 26 years. I have been a GC, a member of ASHI ( American Society of Home Inspectors) NAHI ( National Association of Home Inspectors), FABI(Florida Association of Building Inspectors ), the BBB( Better Business Bureau ), NAHI Florida , and I am one of three private sector inspectors who was picked in 1998 to be an FHA / HUD Inspector, where my knowledge of buildings and componentry has allowed me to be chosen to go out of state for HUD when local inspector numbers are inadequate to handle the business HUD has.
Additonally, I was chosen by the TV series "This Old House" to work as an independent contract inspector advising the producer of local codes and business practices while they were working on the 1992-1993 Miami project.
I have said many times, and I will say again, that I do not mean to offend anyone here. It is known that the majority of contractors have the best of intentions and work ethics. Whether you understand this or not, so do many if not most home inspectors. If the absolute truth were to be told here, I would tell you that the homes we inspect that are owned by local contractors, or the homes "flipped" by local contractors, are often the worst we look at. And, more often than not, the contractors are sometimes offended by what we have to say. This is something I do not care about. It is insulting to my intelligence to hear a contractor tell me that a unpermitted,converted screen room with vinyl windows and the original sod-level slab does not have to have GFCI outlets , and that the ceiling fan is ok to be spinning 6 feet above the floor. It is insulting to my intelligence to have a completely remodeled kitchen, with all new electrical run, and no GFCI protection. It is insulting my intelligence to see that the original 150 amp service panel, maxed out before the remodel, has multiple new circuit splices with romex stapled to the wall above the panel. The above all took place in an electrican's flip job. He was furious with me. I don't care.
There are people in every business who don't know what they are talking about. You should never assume that all people in that field are ignorant. To do so means you lump all in a specified area together, and that makes no more sence than to say all(blank) are fat, or all(blank) are stupid, or all people in a certain religion that is not the same religion as your chosen religion are(blank).
Insofar as the local municipal inspectors are concerned, I personally know they are often overloaded and cannot therefore always do what they would like. Locally, real estate went wild, and being as I live in an area where new construction was unbelievable, one can see where it would be difficult if not impossible to do the best inspection you could with the work load they had in place. Regarding the building dept manager and his troubles, well this story has been in the paper almost every day, so I am not telling tales out of school. And again, with HUD it was thier statement that thier own inspectors were not reliable, not mine. I suppose that they thought long and hard before deciding that they would have to out source for private inspectors to take over this job.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
icon4.gif
Rob, I'm gonna start hitting the return key for you, if you don't. :)

It is insulting to my intelligence to hear a contractor tell me that a unpermitted,converted screen room with vinyl windows and the original sod-level slab does not have to have GFCI outlets...
Under what section would you require GFCI protection for receptacles in a sunroom?

It is insulting my intelligence to see that the original 150 amp service panel, maxed out before the remodel, has multiple new circuit splices with romex stapled to the wall above the panel.
Maxed out by number of circuits? Or by calculated load?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Rob DiVita said:
Additonally, I was chosen by the TV series "This Old House" to work as an independent contract inspector advising the producer of local codes and business practices while they were working on the 1992-1993 Miami project.

While that must have been fun and interesting I don't see how that has anything to do with your knowledge of the NEC.

Like George I would really like to know what code section you feel requires GFCIs in an enclosed sun room.

Keep in mind that I am often an outspoken supporter of HIs and the HI industry on this forum.

I feel the HIs have a big role to play in electrical safety issues. At the same time I expect that if an HI brings up a code rule that they should know the rule.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
georgestolz said:
icon4.gif
Rob, I'm gonna start hitting the return key for you, if you don't. :)

And myself.

Rob, I haven't even tried to read your last post, it looks like one long sentence.

Roger
 
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