Inspectors vs electricians,plumbers, etc

[allenwayne]

Rob don`t take offense in my response.It is my opinion and that is all.I am an electrician and have been since I was a young buck.I have some knowledge of plumbing, HVAC, Framing....... etc. But i would not even think of inspecting anyone of those fields due to my limited knowledge of them.

I couldn`t tell you how many fixture units are allowed for a 4 in pipe within so many feet.I know there is a formula for it but I don`t know it.I can`t calculate the btu requirement per sq ft. but I know there is a formula.I know there is an uplift calculation for shear walls but I don`t know the calculation.

My biggest problem with a HI is that the home owner pays them to inspect a prospective purchase gets a report complete with pretty little pictures,arrows and foot notes.What I have found is that the majority(not all mind you) report phantom code violations.Since they are venturing into a world they have limited knowledge of.

IMHO, to actually be a good HI it would take continuing education in each and every trade involved in construction.That would more than likely involve the majority of one`s time/ week and not allow anytime to do inspections unless they were done between classes.

To become a HI in Florida all it takes is a occupational license.I know i paid my $35.00 in 06 to pasco county tax collectors and was going to open a business doing them,if you want to check it was named allamericanhomeinspection. but the market fell apart and I went into another field.

Again don`t take offense,If you go and have continued education in all the fields you inspect.I applaud you .But please don`t use This old house as a refferance .We have discussed this before.They give homeowners the worst instruction.I wouldn`t let them wire a porta john .But then again I couldn`t tell you how many 4 in drops are you allowed from an HVAC flex duct 10 in feed air line before you have to downsize for static pressure.Can you ???? not your partner but can you.......

By the way I agree use the return key it makes for better reading without the words going round and round.

 

[George Stolz]

Allen is living proof that our return key therapy works.

 

[allenwayne]

Yes it does George By the way were there real bullets in that gun you had

 

[George Stolz]

I'm not going to tell you, for fear of a relapse.

 

[allenwayne]

I'm not going to tell you, for fear of a relapse.

George I go to my weekly meetings of RKA (return key anonymous) Hi I am Allen and I use my return key for fear of George doing things BAM

 

[allenwayne]

What happened to the OP,George you scared another one off

 

[S Gordon]

First of all I should go on record as saying I'm an electrician and I'm not anti home inspector. That would be silly, akin to a divorce lawyer being anti-divorce. I am however anti bad home inspector.

Some of the home inspectors really try (good to see some on sites like this) whereas others don't take it all that seriously. I would call their position an unenviable one at most times. In real estate transactions they're often referred to as the deal-breaker (home seller on phone to us "you wouldn't belive all the items the home inspector brought-up on the report"). Must be fun.

Also, they don't have five different people each with an expertise in a phase of construction performing the inspection, one inspector typically does it all. I've personally got over 15 years in the filed and still don't know everything there is to know about residential, let alone other disciplines of electric. I doubt that one lifetime is long enough for one to become an expert on each of the many different areas of construction.

So alot of home inspectors don't really dig into a home thoroughly, they find what we refer to as the five things:
-double taps at panel -reverse polarity -GFIs not in appropriate places -missing knock-outs or j. box covers -aluminum wire.

That's speaking about alot of them. Then there are the good ones. The ones who spend time at IAEI sponsored seminars, who meet with and call electricians and go on sites like this. They earn their money and I've seen them save homeowners from making huge mistakes in purchasing situations.

Hurray for the good ones (just like the millions of other people in this world who just go through the motions) and shame on the bad ones.

One more sad fact about home inspection reports around here; they're watered down by buyer's attorneys who sometimes forego really major items in lieu of convenience items in an attempt to appear knowledgable in ALL things. Bet not too many of them were electricians before getting their law degrees. Now going from being a lawyer to an electrician I can understand..

 

[realolman]

Without being experts in every field, I imagine most any residential plumber, or electrician, would be able to observe considerably more about the condition and construction of a house than a lot of folks, who might not know whether electricity ran through pipes or wires.

So, maybe someone who doesn't know everything could perform a legitimate service for someone who knows less.

Actually, I thought electricians knew everything that was to be known; and plumbers knew the rest....

No, wait... that's Mark Twain... and some other guy I can't remember. ( It'll come up here in a minute )

 

[brian john]

-double taps at panel -reverse polarity -GFIs not in appropriate places -missing knock-outs or j. box covers -aluminum wire.

I have gotten several calls from homeowners asking why their fuse panel is a violation or needs to be replaced. I looked at 2 or 3 of these over the years and they were all last generation fuse panels, 200 amp panel with fused main, and fuse stats for the branch circuits. I see no problem with that.

 

[stickboy1375]

I had one actually add up the breakers and that number came out bigger than the 200A main breaker... so that one failed...:grin:

 

[gllewis]

Inspectors vs ....

Inspectors vs ....

It shouldn't be us vs. them. Our professions should be working and learning together. I have found that most electrical contractors respond favorably when an inspector does a thorough inspection, and provides code references when there are problems. This is not limited to the electrical panels, but occur throughout the installations. Inspectors are not licensed in Georgia, but we have a professional association that requres code certification to become a full member. Our standards of practice require the inspector to provide code references for defects or deficiencies found on new work. This raises the bar for inspectors, and provides better reports for builders and contractors.

As inspectors, we are performing a visual inspection and reporting our opinion of conditions found at the time of the inspection. In doing so, we should be careful not to make judgements on cosmetic issues, but to limit our observations to safety and code issues when dealing with new construction or renovations on existing properties.

Thanks to all the good electricians who care enough to do great installations! We spend so much time reporting on problems, the good work often goes unrecognized.

 

[Foorsail]

Home inspector Not electrician, Not Plumer, etc

Home inspector Not electrician, Not Plumer, etc

As far as I am concerned, Home inspectors, other inspectors, installers all can get it wrong. The difference is that as a home inspector you are looking for points of negotiation in most cases. A report to haggle the price. As far as the service conductor size being incorrect, what size were they? Were they actually incorrect? I have seen reports from home inspectors that make me laugh (out loud). Talk about wrong!

I am from NJ we have state laws which preclude contractors and inspectors alike from making someone upgrade existing work (NJ UCC Rehab-subcode). And as far as not understanding how certain work could be approved, maybe it was never inspected or done by the seller, sorry the homeowner.

Codes are minimum standards, for installation, which change periodically, look at the year of construction when you are telling your seller, it does not met code. Maybe it did once upon a time.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I too am fed up will sloppy not to code work. I work in a small town and it's more and more difficult to do the right thing. Just the other day I was asked by a condo management company to give a price to move a Panel that was in a closet to another side of the closet. I told them I could not move the panel to a place in a closet. I would be more than glad to move it to another code compliant place. Later that day I was told they found a EC to do the job they way they wanted. I know this EC and I am ticked to say the least.

On Building inspectors:
I think that for the most part they are undertrained, and don't care too much. I think there just revenue collectors. Just making sure that enough money was going to be taxed.
IE: A friend in Los angeles had a contractor pull a permit for a complete Kitchen remodel, Walls moved, Appliances moved etc. The all in one permit stated Kitchen remodel. The inspector came by and asked why there was no permit for the cabinets and appliances. It appeared the general contractor was not doing the other work. So be it. The value on the permit was correct. The town made them get an additonal permit. The inspector did not notice the Flying splices , The 14 g wire on 20 amp breakers, the buried boxes,the missing outlet on the Island need I say more.
My friend did not hire the lowest priced guy , The medium priced guy that was recommended.

Edit language - George

 

[George Stolz]

On Building inspectors:
I think that for the most part they are undertrained, and don't care too much. I think there just revenue collectors. Just making sure that enough money was going to be taxed.

I love generalizations. They offer so many avenues for error.

Nearly all inspectors in Colorado are combination building/electrical inspectors. Many are master electricians.

In fact, I recall several threads (including one in progress right now) where the inspector fought the good fight and caught flack for it.

Perhaps we can take it easy on the abuse of other's professions for a spell, whaddya say?

 

[brian john]

George:

Years ago I came to the realization that there are good and bad in all trades and professions. Home inspectors are no different I am sure there are some top of the line professionals and some slackers, just like in our trade.

I usally try my best , but I have had my slack days, I just do not make a habit of it.

I just hope and pray my lawyer and doctor do not fall into the slacker category.

Home inspectors fill a need, hopfully, the majority do their best to assist their clients.

 

[George Stolz]

Hear! Hear!

 

[petersonra]

I too am fed up will sloppy not to code work. I work in a small town and it's more and more difficult to do the right thing. Just the other day I was asked by a condo management company to give a price to move a Panel that was in a closet to another side of the closet. I told them I could not move the panel to a place in a closet. I would be more than glad to move it to another code compliant place. Later that day I was told they found a EC to do the job they way they wanted. I know this EC and I am ticked to say the least.

I would get over it. Life is too short to worry about these kind of relatively minor issues. Do the right thing for you, and don't worry so much if other people cut corners in small ways.

On Building inspectors:
I think that for the most part they are undertrained, and don't care too much. I think there just revenue collectors. Just making sure that enough money was going to be taxed.

I am pretty much convinced that 95% of the building permit system, to include the inspection process, is about revenue. Property taxes are a big deal in every locality and permits are where the taxing authorities get most of their information on upgrades and improvements that will get your taxes raised. Follow the money. That does not mean there are no other benefits to the permitting process, but there is little question in my mind, or in the minds of most RE tax payers in this country that the revenue side of it is what drives the system.

 

[brian john]

I am pretty much convinced that 95% of the building permit system, to include the inspection process, is about revenue.

Like most things in life I feel there is a certain amount of concern over safety in the building departments and I am sure there is concern over safety with the inspectors. But the upper level management for the most paret it is about the money, till there is a problem (fire, building collaspe, ect.). then they have a nice quote of public concern ready for the local news.

The management is removed from everyday operations of field inspections and are responsible to the taxpayers to keep cost to a minimum.

 

[petersonra]

I do not blame the employees for how the system works. The heat should be placed where it belongs. That would be on the slimey, money-grubbing politicians.

 

[huenhome]

Great Post, but how about Area Inspectors vs. Public Utility Comm. Dev. Planners?

Great Post, but how about Area Inspectors vs. Public Utility Comm. Dev. Planners?

I have been the general manager for my husband's electrical contracting company for over 16 years. He would whole heartedly agree with much of what you said...he can't stand sloppy electrical work!
He also get's all kind of hot under the collar when a project is approved via our local electrical supplier (Xcel Energy of Colorado) and then is DENIED by the local electrical inspector! What gives between these two entities?? And what about all the city/state/local electrical inspection offices who send out different inspectors for each phase of the inspections??? What you end up with is a MELTDOWN. These people (elec. inspectors) never seem to agree with each other. No matter how tidy a worker my hubby is, if a different person comes to inspect, they always seem to gig on something that is totally to code and had passed the first time. Leaving ME to have to dig out the appropriate sections of the NEC book and quoting it to them over the phone so that they are up to date with the code law! W.T.H.?? I'm pretty certain that as an inspector, every last one of them should be up to par on the rules! Sure seems like the poster I am replying to knows his stuff, how about running a seminar for the rest of them?
Let's have an example here so that you may see what has me up in arms and actually writing a thesis paper on the subject of "Coordination of Area Electrical Inspectors and Public Utility Companies"....
A customer wants to add a second service for the pool house and pool he has just had installed (all permitted, inspected and approved)...Okay, no problem, right?!? We call Xcel, they send out the WRONG guy--a lineman with no diagram of the transformers, who, by the way did not tell us he was a lineman--this guy tells my electricians to "go ahead and put the wire in the pipe and take it to that transformer over there". Okay, we then call the city, pull the permit for a second service, are granted the permit, and an inspector comes to take a look before we begin. This inspector then say, "sure, that looks like a good spot, and you have everything in order, so go ahead and get 'er done". Perfect, all duckies in a row....WRONG! We get the trench dug, pipe and wire in and going to where it "belongs". Call in for our next inspection and out comes a different inspector (no suprise there as it always happens that way). This new insp. tells the electricians 1) You can't have two services on one property, 2) Tells the customer that Xcel would have done the wir and pipe for FREE (oh really?!!) and that we must be ripping him off! GREAT GOBS OF GOOSE POOP. Nothing like a little coordination of people, eh? Of course the customer is mad as a hornet, but not at us as he was present during both of the previous visits by the "People in Authority". What now? We call Xcel and have them come back out--but it isn't the same guy that came out before...It's a real community developement planner who DOES have the layout for the transformers, and tells us "sorry, I was out of town and they sent out the wrong guy to give you information the 1st time". Great. She now wants us to pull up the wire, the pipe etc. and move it to a DIFFERENT transformer-uh, the one we suggested to begin with as it was soooo much closer to where we were starting. She also state that OF COURSE there can be two services on one property, think of all the Mother-in-law houses out there, guest houses on big properties, etc. Plus of course, Xcel would Never have put that pipe and wire in for FREE! But, does she offer to reimburse the customer, or us, for the time they have had us waste? The thousands of dollars we just ate? Hell no. So our customer is now stuck with a pool he can't use, and a pool house with no power. And we are stuck with NO PAY. Alright, customer is getting a lawyer to sue Xcel and the city...but are we paid, nope.
Why? Because there is NO Cooperation or Coordination between the area inspectors and the public utility companies! Wouldn't it be easier if they woked together? Wouldn't it make sense for the area inspectors to adopt the rules of the public utility companies and the NEC?
Or how about the rule in Denver, that the mast has to be 8' over the roof, but Xcel wont hook it up if it's over 4' above the roof....Now what? Customers just get jacked up if they want to add onto the house or put in a garage, etc. Many of them are now requesting we work without permits...sorry folks, not putting my business license on the line for you.
So any ideas?
Anyone out there have any experiences like this that I can use in my thesis (I just went back to school after 22 years and this topic is the one I chose).
I really need some feedback here.
Thanks for reading another long vent...

Frustrated in Colorado.:-?