I was temporarily placed on a job awaiting my next bid to come in and to pick up some xmas money. I went to the job where they were completely gutting the kitchens, drywall, etc... I didnt let the person know that I was a elec. contractor I noticed some code violations but didnt mention them because half the apartment complex was finished. What they did was use the existing 12/3wgrd in a 18 cu in box and came out of the same box and caught the micro above the range. In my understanding this box is overloaded.I didnt mention it because appx 150 apartments were already finished. I happened to run across someone I new that I had previously worked with,he new I had my masters. The next day they said they were caught up and didnt need me anymore. I believe the superintendant was afraid I would say something to the local inspectors.This job was not going to be inspected and I cant see the reasoning why. Should I call the inspectors and tell them of the violations if I dont and this place might burn down because of the violations I would feel pretty bad. Please give me your insight. Thank you very much!Butch EC#03-12031
Is it wrong to know to much?
- Thread starter butch
- Start date
- Status
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
Butch,
Personally, I wouldn't open up a "Pandora's Box" by turning them in. If you work for this company there's no telling what repercussions may come your way somewhere down the line. To coin a phrase "You might be cutting off your nose to spite your face". Just walk away and take on your next job. It's not your license that's on the line for the violation - it's theirs. It's not your tail that's on the line for not pulling a permit - it's theirs.
Just my opinion.
Butch,
Personally, I wouldn't open up a "Pandora's Box" by turning them in. If you work for this company there's no telling what repercussions may come your way somewhere down the line. To coin a phrase "You might be cutting off your nose to spite your face". Just walk away and take on your next job. It's not your license that's on the line for the violation - it's theirs. It's not your tail that's on the line for not pulling a permit - it's theirs.
Just my opinion.
stars13bars2
Senior Member
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
butch
we need more information on this box overloading, or is it overcrowding, that you meant. even if you used 12/2wg to leave the box and had a device in the box, this still wouldn't necessarily cause the box to be overcrowded. maybe i am missing something here. how many wires in the box? is there a device in it also? what makes you think it is overcrowded?
butch
we need more information on this box overloading, or is it overcrowding, that you meant. even if you used 12/2wg to leave the box and had a device in the box, this still wouldn't necessarily cause the box to be overcrowded. maybe i am missing something here. how many wires in the box? is there a device in it also? what makes you think it is overcrowded?
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
1-12/3 cable 3 conductors
1-12/2 conductor 2 conducttors
1-egc 1 conductor
1 device 2 conductors
8 conductors @ 2.25 cu inch each
18 cu inch total
Sounds ok to me too.
18 cu inch boxOriginally posted by stars13bars2:
butch
we need more information on this box overloading, or is it overcrowding, that you meant. even if you used 12/2wg to leave the box and had a device in the box, this still wouldn't necessarily cause the box to be overcrowded. maybe i am missing something here. how many wires in the box? is there a device in it also? what makes you think it is overcrowded?
1-12/3 cable 3 conductors
1-12/2 conductor 2 conducttors
1-egc 1 conductor
1 device 2 conductors
8 conductors @ 2.25 cu inch each
18 cu inch total
Sounds ok to me too.
jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
So why is this job not being inspected? If I happened to know about a 150-unit apartment building that was not getting any electrical inspections, I'd call the AHJ. I'm certain they would be very interested in that. I've seen cases where they shut down remodel work on a small single-family dwelling when they found out that work was being done without a permit.
As for the violations you saw, are you sure they were violations? If you report something that turns out to be OK, the AHJ may not take you seriously in the future.
I'm wondering how you have an EC license but work for someone else. The whole purpose of having an EC license is to run your own shop. I would be surprised if an employer kept you on the payroll if he knew that you had an EC license, since that makes you the competition.
So why is this job not being inspected? If I happened to know about a 150-unit apartment building that was not getting any electrical inspections, I'd call the AHJ. I'm certain they would be very interested in that. I've seen cases where they shut down remodel work on a small single-family dwelling when they found out that work was being done without a permit.
As for the violations you saw, are you sure they were violations? If you report something that turns out to be OK, the AHJ may not take you seriously in the future.
I'm wondering how you have an EC license but work for someone else. The whole purpose of having an EC license is to run your own shop. I would be surprised if an employer kept you on the payroll if he knew that you had an EC license, since that makes you the competition.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
Thats my count too Scott.But lets see how the master adds.
Thats my count too Scott.But lets see how the master adds.
Tom.Margillo
Member
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
Its obviously wrong to know to much since the calculation that electricmanscott has there is correct. Master electrician in what state or county or city or town or village or...........
Its obviously wrong to know to much since the calculation that electricmanscott has there is correct.
Master electrician in what state or county or city or town or village or...........jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
Something just doesn't add up here and i am not talking box fill.Master in 2 states and he is out being a labor on a remodel.
Something just doesn't add up here and i am not talking box fill.Master in 2 states and he is out being a labor on a remodel.
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
Gotta Eat!!!
We dont know the economy in his area. I just got a couple resumes that supprsed me. One had an assoiciates degreee in EE. Another Was experienced large control machine troubleshooter, trained in electronics. They were both applying for electrician helper.
Gotta Eat!!!
jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
Every state has different rules on what constitutes a master and what various classes of licenses permit. Up here, being a master doesn't necessarily mean you just stay in the office and sign permits.
A journeyman or master can work unsupervised and can supervise up to two helpers. They all have to work for an EC. The difference between a journeyman and a master is that only a master can "plan and lay out" wiring work, and only a master can be the official designated master every EC needs to be responsible for the work done by the EC.
Lots of electricians here get journeyman licenses and don't bother going on to get a master license, as they really don't have a need for one. If you're a one-man shop, you must have a master license, and then you must also get an EC license.
I'm a master electrician, and I'm 100% of the labor on every job my company does.
Every state has different rules on what constitutes a master and what various classes of licenses permit. Up here, being a master doesn't necessarily mean you just stay in the office and sign permits.
A journeyman or master can work unsupervised and can supervise up to two helpers. They all have to work for an EC. The difference between a journeyman and a master is that only a master can "plan and lay out" wiring work, and only a master can be the official designated master every EC needs to be responsible for the work done by the EC.
Lots of electricians here get journeyman licenses and don't bother going on to get a master license, as they really don't have a need for one. If you're a one-man shop, you must have a master license, and then you must also get an EC license.
I'm a master electrician, and I'm 100% of the labor on every job my company does.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
Agree with Jeff: Only a business may be a contractor, not a person. A contractor must employ at least one master. In our case, I am the master and business owner.
Agree with Jeff: Only a business may be a contractor, not a person. A contractor must employ at least one master. In our case, I am the master and business owner.
jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
Actually, a person may hold a contractor's license here. But a contractor's license by itself doesn't allow a holder to actually perform electrical work.
Theoretically, someone who doesn't know a hammer from a wrench could obtain an EC license. He would have to hire a master to be in charge of all the electrical work, get bonding and insurance, etc. Anyone doing work for this EC would have to be licensed at least at the journeyman level or be supervised by someone who does. This would all be legal here, provided that the holder of the EC license doesn't actually do any of the electrical work. He could schedule jobs, buy equipment, answer the phone, make coffee, watch "Judge Judy", etc., but he couldn't sign permits. The master has to do that.
I doubt it happens like this very often in the real world. I guess if someone had a lot of money they wanted to invest in a business, they could become an EC and hire the electricians they need, but I think the usual way is for an electrician to get a master license and start his own shop.
Actually, a person may hold a contractor's license here. But a contractor's license by itself doesn't allow a holder to actually perform electrical work.
Theoretically, someone who doesn't know a hammer from a wrench could obtain an EC license. He would have to hire a master to be in charge of all the electrical work, get bonding and insurance, etc. Anyone doing work for this EC would have to be licensed at least at the journeyman level or be supervised by someone who does. This would all be legal here, provided that the holder of the EC license doesn't actually do any of the electrical work. He could schedule jobs, buy equipment, answer the phone, make coffee, watch "Judge Judy", etc., but he couldn't sign permits. The master has to do that.
I doubt it happens like this very often in the real world. I guess if someone had a lot of money they wanted to invest in a business, they could become an EC and hire the electricians they need, but I think the usual way is for an electrician to get a master license and start his own shop.
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
Gentlemen, There is small misunderstanding , the 18 cu inch box was full with the wires but it had to have a GFI installed in it which makes it pretty tough to install. The violation Im referring to is the Home Run they picked up the disposal and dishwasher which puts 6 wires 1 grd and 2 for the device that calls for a 20 cu inch box.Also in 1983 they outlawed nm and allowed nm-b,for the romex. These people should have added the correct wire and divided the DW and Disposal.I work for the state department and only do government jobs Ive traveled around the world at different government facilities. I just returned from Ghana , Africa I was there 6 months doing an electrical upgrade.The prime contractor held the bond and insurance.The government always pays and Ive been working for them since 1994. I just hate sitting around the house Id rather be in the field.
Gentlemen, There is small misunderstanding , the 18 cu inch box was full with the wires but it had to have a GFI installed in it which makes it pretty tough to install. The violation Im referring to is the Home Run they picked up the disposal and dishwasher which puts 6 wires 1 grd and 2 for the device that calls for a 20 cu inch box.Also in 1983 they outlawed nm and allowed nm-b,for the romex. These people should have added the correct wire and divided the DW and Disposal.I work for the state department and only do government jobs Ive traveled around the world at different government facilities. I just returned from Ghana , Africa I was there 6 months doing an electrical upgrade.The prime contractor held the bond and insurance.The government always pays and Ive been working for them since 1994. I just hate sitting around the house Id rather be in the field.
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
Gentlemen, I have a journeymens card,Masters and a contractors. The only way to get your contractors is to take the masters exam and then take the Buisness Law exam, and you must pass both with a 75 or better. Ive in this trade for 36 years. I do know the difference between a hammer and a hickey.
Gentlemen, I have a journeymens card,Masters and a contractors. The only way to get your contractors is to take the masters exam and then take the Buisness Law exam, and you must pass both with a 75 or better. Ive in this trade for 36 years. I do know the difference between a hammer and a hickey.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
This post you mention 6 wires a device and an equipment ground requiring a 20 cu inch box. Assuming #12 you have over 20 cu inches so that box is too small.
The dishwasher and disposal do not necessarily need their own circuits.
I am guessing if you were new on the job and started with all this stuff I can fully understand why you only lasted a day. Not being mean just keepin' it real.
So I guess the answer is no, it is not wrong to know too much. It might be wrong to think you know to much and let everbody know it.
[ December 18, 2005, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
Butch, your original post does not mention a dishwasher or disposal. What you said was microwave and existing 12/3 circuit. 18 cu inch box is fine.
This post you mention 6 wires a device and an equipment ground requiring a 20 cu inch box. Assuming #12 you have over 20 cu inches so that box is too small.
The dishwasher and disposal do not necessarily need their own circuits.
I am guessing if you were new on the job and started with all this stuff I can fully understand why you only lasted a day. Not being mean just keepin' it real.
So I guess the answer is no, it is not wrong to know too much. It might be wrong to think you know to much and let everbody know it.
[ December 18, 2005, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
Tom.Margillo
Member
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
So I guess the answer is no, it is not wrong to know too much. It might be wrong to think you know to much and let everbody know it.
AMEN
So I guess the answer is no, it is not wrong to know too much. It might be wrong to think you know to much and let everbody know it.
AMEN
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
" What they did was use the existing 12/3wgrd in a 18 cu in box and came out of the same box and caught the micro above the range"
How does this now change to your last post ?
"The violation Im referring to is the Home Run they picked up the disposal and dishwasher which puts 6 wires 1 grd and 2 for the device that calls for a 20 cu inch box."
[ December 18, 2005, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
" What they did was use the existing 12/3wgrd in a 18 cu in box and came out of the same box and caught the micro above the range"
How does this now change to your last post ?
"The violation Im referring to is the Home Run they picked up the disposal and dishwasher which puts 6 wires 1 grd and 2 for the device that calls for a 20 cu inch box."
[ December 18, 2005, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
Knowing too much can cost you a job.The man you might be working under has reason to worry that his own job is at risk.Also a place that advertises for a helper or electrician with 2 years min. might not hire you either.Even tho your taking a pay cut they can see right thru you.Soon as a job closer to your skil level and pay comes up you will say bye.Been there done that.
Knowing too much can cost you a job.The man you might be working under has reason to worry that his own job is at risk.Also a place that advertises for a helper or electrician with 2 years min. might not hire you either.Even tho your taking a pay cut they can see right thru you.Soon as a job closer to your skil level and pay comes up you will say bye.Been there done that.
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