- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
IMO it's not knowing to much, it is saying to much that can cost you a job.
Is it wrong to know to much?
- Thread starter butch
- Start date
- Status
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
Your right Bob,i said it wrong.Best to get foot in the door first and then walk softly till you know who is who.
Your right Bob,i said it wrong.Best to get foot in the door first and then walk softly till you know who is who.
ty
Senior Member
- Location
- 3rd Rock from the Sun
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
I've 'known too much' for a long time.
The theory is:
Each person's brain has a set capacity.
You never really forget anything, you 'know too much'.
When you learn something new, the brain discards things that have not been used to make room.
So, instead of saying 'I can't remember', say 'I know too much'.
I've 'known too much' for a long time.
The theory is:
Each person's brain has a set capacity.
You never really forget anything, you 'know too much'.
When you learn something new, the brain discards things that have not been used to make room.
So, instead of saying 'I can't remember', say 'I know too much'.
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
Mr. Iwire ,I didnt say one word to anybody.I keep my mouth shut. It just happened to be the person who reconized me from Terrys Electric who was the superintendants watch dog. I am going to the city and have them take a stoll with me, not because Im a loud mouth but I consider the lives of the people living there to be of great value. There are alot of other violations I will go over with Bill and Al. And I hope the GC will stop taking short cuts at the risks of others.There is no Electrical Contractor or Master on that Job. This may teach them a lesson.
Mr. Iwire ,I didnt say one word to anybody.I keep my mouth shut. It just happened to be the person who reconized me from Terrys Electric who was the superintendants watch dog. I am going to the city and have them take a stoll with me, not because Im a loud mouth but I consider the lives of the people living there to be of great value. There are alot of other violations I will go over with Bill and Al. And I hope the GC will stop taking short cuts at the risks of others.There is no Electrical Contractor or Master on that Job. This may teach them a lesson.
stars13bars2
Senior Member
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
original post didn't describe a situation that was overloaded or overcrowded. now we are hearing about a situation which may be both overcrowded and overloaded. is this the same job? thats my story and i'm sticking to it! i would think that a master would know that the latest description would still be a violation even if installed in a 20 cubic inch box. maybe i am still missing something. :roll:
original post didn't describe a situation that was overloaded or overcrowded. now we are hearing about a situation which may be both overcrowded and overloaded. is this the same job? thats my story and i'm sticking to it! i would think that a master would know that the latest description would still be a violation even if installed in a 20 cubic inch box. maybe i am still missing something. :roll:
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
Butch, I think the problem is that we're getting bits and pieces and not getting the whole story. This results in a story that doesn't blow our skirts up and also sets off everybody's doubt-o-meter.
In your first post, you said they came off a 12/3 w/ground home run and caught the microwave. Box-fill, while a benchmark of quality, is not exactly a gripping life-safety story. But it really started you off on the wrong foot when what you described was legal. An 18" box can be filled 18", no violation.
To make matters worse for yourself here, Butch, you didn't notice that three 12-2's add up to 20.25 inches. That shot your credibility some more.
Now, I would chuckle to myself if I saw someone else doing this work, but I would not start a jihad over a couple inches of box fill. It's pathetic.
I always put them on separate circuits, but that's my preference, not a code requirement. If these fellas know their specs and are installing according to 210.23, then that's their privledge.
If you wanna pick a fight, do it for the lack of permit, and don't say a word about the box fill issues. You'd stand a better chance of not getting laughed out the door.
Butch, I think the problem is that we're getting bits and pieces and not getting the whole story. This results in a story that doesn't blow our skirts up and also sets off everybody's doubt-o-meter.
In your first post, you said they came off a 12/3 w/ground home run and caught the microwave. Box-fill, while a benchmark of quality, is not exactly a gripping life-safety story. But it really started you off on the wrong foot when what you described was legal. An 18" box can be filled 18", no violation.
That is still legal and not a code issue. A GFI counts as two conductors the same as a single pole toggle. Might seem odd, but it's a fact. (314.16)
This description is not clear. At worst, it sounds like they overcrowded a box a bit. To be honest, I avoid putting three 12-2's in a 21.5" box. It's a pain in the butt all around, I avoid it like the plague.
To make matters worse for yourself here, Butch, you didn't notice that three 12-2's add up to 20.25 inches. That shot your credibility some more.
Now, I would chuckle to myself if I saw someone else doing this work, but I would not start a jihad over a couple inches of box fill. It's pathetic.
Do you have the specs on these two appliances?
I always put them on separate circuits, but that's my preference, not a code requirement. If these fellas know their specs and are installing according to 210.23, then that's their privledge.
If you wanna pick a fight, do it for the lack of permit, and don't say a word about the box fill issues. You'd stand a better chance of not getting laughed out the door.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
I agree with George. (Not applicable to other topics )
Make a stink over permits, licenses, and inspections and let them take it from there.
I agree with George. (Not applicable to other topics
)Make a stink over permits, licenses, and inspections and let them take it from there.
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
I am working for an EC over the winter. This is a company I spent over 8 years with. I have learned a ton since I left there and now that I am back working under a foreman I have been seeing some violations. I am a pretty young man and some of these guys have been in the trade a as long as I am old. I in no way feel like I know too much and in fact generally feel like I know nothing. Never the less it is a fine line trying to point out problems. The job I am on now I humbly pointed out the issues with bonding a transformer at 2 spots, using Mike Holts material, it went over pretty well. Smaller stuff I let go cause when it comes down to it its not my problem and it sure is nice since I have been on my own for a while. Its almost like a vacation
I am working for an EC over the winter. This is a company I spent over 8 years with. I have learned a ton since I left there and now that I am back working under a foreman I have been seeing some violations. I am a pretty young man and some of these guys have been in the trade a as long as I am old. I in no way feel like I know too much and in fact generally feel like I know nothing. Never the less it is a fine line trying to point out problems. The job I am on now I humbly pointed out the issues with bonding a transformer at 2 spots, using Mike Holts material, it went over pretty well. Smaller stuff I let go cause when it comes down to it its not my problem and it sure is nice since I have been on my own for a while. Its almost like a vacation
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
Is it just me or do others see this as Butch is upset because they let him go.Seems he was not gonna turn them in untill they terminated him.
Is it just me or do others see this as Butch is upset because they let him go.Seems he was not gonna turn them in untill they terminated him.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
The post started out with a 12/3HR not 2 12/2`s (where did that change)???????????????????
The post started out with a 12/3HR not 2 12/2`s (where did that change)???????????????????
ty
Senior Member
- Location
- 3rd Rock from the Sun
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
read my explanation on page two.
Larry,Originally posted by dlhoule:
Who Cares? I am still trying to understand how anybody can know too much!
read my explanation on page two.
stars13bars2
Senior Member
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
Hey maybe I shouldn't be so tough on Butch, as I remember after getting my licence I probably knew too much also. Then one day a fellow sparky told me that somewhere in that 8% that I missed on my test, there was probably something that could get somebody killed. I sure am glad that I learned just a little more since then. I don't think I will ever know too much again, at least I hope not.
Hey maybe I shouldn't be so tough on Butch, as I remember after getting my licence I probably knew too much also. Then one day a fellow sparky told me that somewhere in that 8% that I missed on my test, there was probably something that could get somebody killed. I sure am glad that I learned just a little more since then. I don't think I will ever know too much again, at least I hope not.
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
Gentlemen, First I would like to thank all of you for listening to what I had to say.I just wish I could take one of you with me to see what Im talking about, Im not here in central Florida to make any nuisance or any uncalled for remarks. I was born here in 1957 and plan to stay here the rest of my life,but not in this apartment complex.Maybe the words came out a little fast and I didnt explain things properly.I have a lot to learn still but I was just upset that the electricians took to many risk to hurry the job along. Like they say its not a hobby its a profession.Happy Holidays to all and a Prosperous New Year.
Gentlemen, First I would like to thank all of you for listening to what I had to say.I just wish I could take one of you with me to see what Im talking about, Im not here in central Florida to make any nuisance or any uncalled for remarks. I was born here in 1957 and plan to stay here the rest of my life,but not in this apartment complex.Maybe the words came out a little fast and I didnt explain things properly.I have a lot to learn still but I was just upset that the electricians took to many risk to hurry the job along. Like they say its not a hobby its a profession.Happy Holidays to all and a Prosperous New Year.
Glenn Sand
Member
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
I have held General Electrical Administrator's license + Master's and Journeyman electrician's licenses in Washington State since 1973 and I believe that qualifies me to speak here.
I've pretty well read this whole thread and not once did I read what should've been brought up in the beginning when the question was asked. A lot of off-topic discussion has been devoted to mostly nothing that solves or addresses the real problems here.
In my state and I would assume 'any' state, journeymen electricians on the job who have knowledge of, see, install or are required to install electrical work that fails to measure up to NEC standards and fails to report it to the proper authorities and AHJ, (and all this can be proven) is 'personally legally liable' in the case of property damage or personal injury due to that installation. The 'proof' of your knowledge is usually only that you were duly licensed and/or classified and was actually working on the job where the violations occurred. It is 'assumed' by the courts that your qualifications (classification as a journeyman electrician) and license make you complicit for sub-standard installations on any job under your control or that you were a party to the installation of because it is 'assumed' that you know the laws, code and rules of your trade. As a licensed electrician (in states requiring a license) or even if you were merely listed on the payroll as an electrician, you have a legal and moral duty and responsibility to ensure the public and customer that electrical work is properly and safely installed according to trade practices and NEC regardless of the local on the job politics between journeymen, foremen, superintendents and contractors. To act in any other manner is unprofessional and puts us all in a bad public light.
What is one more paycheck here or there in comparison to the possible loss of life and property? This question should've not had to be asked or answered and especially by anyone claiming to have 30 or more years of experience and contractor and Master's credentials. Who are you people anyway? You can never know too much about this trade. If you can go to work on any given day and not learn something then you need to consider another line of work before you hurt yourself, someone around you or an unsuspecting end-user down the road long after your job has been completed.
I have held General Electrical Administrator's license + Master's and Journeyman electrician's licenses in Washington State since 1973 and I believe that qualifies me to speak here.
I've pretty well read this whole thread and not once did I read what should've been brought up in the beginning when the question was asked. A lot of off-topic discussion has been devoted to mostly nothing that solves or addresses the real problems here.
In my state and I would assume 'any' state, journeymen electricians on the job who have knowledge of, see, install or are required to install electrical work that fails to measure up to NEC standards and fails to report it to the proper authorities and AHJ, (and all this can be proven) is 'personally legally liable' in the case of property damage or personal injury due to that installation. The 'proof' of your knowledge is usually only that you were duly licensed and/or classified and was actually working on the job where the violations occurred. It is 'assumed' by the courts that your qualifications (classification as a journeyman electrician) and license make you complicit for sub-standard installations on any job under your control or that you were a party to the installation of because it is 'assumed' that you know the laws, code and rules of your trade. As a licensed electrician (in states requiring a license) or even if you were merely listed on the payroll as an electrician, you have a legal and moral duty and responsibility to ensure the public and customer that electrical work is properly and safely installed according to trade practices and NEC regardless of the local on the job politics between journeymen, foremen, superintendents and contractors. To act in any other manner is unprofessional and puts us all in a bad public light.
What is one more paycheck here or there in comparison to the possible loss of life and property? This question should've not had to be asked or answered and especially by anyone claiming to have 30 or more years of experience and contractor and Master's credentials. Who are you people anyway?
You can never know too much about this trade. If you can go to work on any given day and not learn something then you need to consider another line of work before you hurt yourself, someone around you or an unsuspecting end-user down the road long after your job has been completed.jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
In the state of Florida it is only the Master that they can go after.To believe the above post then would make the the inspector just as guilty.As of yet we have not been given any complete box fill situation that was not legal.If i was to be at fault for every violation others make then i better stay home today.
In the state of Florida it is only the Master that they can go after.To believe the above post then would make the the inspector just as guilty.As of yet we have not been given any complete box fill situation that was not legal.If i was to be at fault for every violation others make then i better stay home today.
Re: Is it wrong to know to much?
Thanks Roger, I was just upset at what these people were getting away with. I Think I will follow your advice and keep it quite. Im not worried about a job right now IM financialy ok right now ahd Ill wait for the nxt government job to break, Their pay goes by the Davis Beacon ACT which is very high including predium and housing. Thanks again and have a good holiday.And may God Bless.
Thanks Roger, I was just upset at what these people were getting away with. I Think I will follow your advice and keep it quite. Im not worried about a job right now IM financialy ok right now ahd Ill wait for the nxt government job to break, Their pay goes by the Davis Beacon ACT which is very high including predium and housing. Thanks again and have a good holiday.And may God Bless.
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