Is my 3-way switch economical ?

aelectricalman · Dec 21, 2004

Thank you for taking the time to view this. I will try not to give you a head ache!

Note: the 14/2 Hot feed is introduced to the 3way in the first switch.
First the (Hot-Black)feed from the panel is tied to bypass the first switch and on out to the second switch through the black wire of the travelers and tied to the dark screw of the dead end 3 way. At this point it is sent back on one of the travelers (White or Red). Once returning to the first switch, the switch leg is tied to the dark screw of that switch. At this point the neutral is picked up and sent to the light. Do you see any ways to make this easier? Do you see any malfunctions? Thank you.

George Stolz · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

You just describing a dead-end three-way, right?
Black "traveler" is full-time power tied through to the common of the far side, a red and a recently rededicated (200.7) white traveler? Wass wrong with that? SOP, bud. Try this on:

Power side of regular threeway, switch 1.
Midswitched fourway, switch 2. <--The switchleg comes from this box.
Dead end Threeway, switch 3.
Red & Black travelers between the first and second switch, red and white travelers to the third switch.

Ever tie a California? Don't get me started. I can devise the most retarded switching methods known to man. I topped out at a dozen on a list.

[ December 22, 2004, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

physis · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

George, pat yourself on the back. I loose interest in the English version of these descriptions right about the second half of the first sentence.

aelectricalman · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

I think i have seen a cali. Is it where the travelers met in the ceiling or box and there is also something feeding out from that ceiling box.

apauling · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

easiest rule for simplicity is one location gets light and the other gets power.

I know sometime, someone is going to come behind me and I prefer leaving it less complex. I also like to leave the feeds long at the panel as panel upgrades are common and I was grateful when I found the wires long enough for my rework.

paul

paul · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

Originally posted by apauling:
easiest rule for simplicity is one location gets light and the other gets power.

I know sometime, someone is going to come behind me and I prefer leaving it less complex. I also like to leave the feeds long at the panel as panel upgrades are common and I was grateful when I found the wires long enough for my rework.

paul

New contruction I will always do it the way you describe. However, when someone want's to add a new switching location while keeping the existing one, it's easier to power and switch from the original location and run your 3-cable to the new switch location.

midget · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

Originally posted by aelectricalman:
Thank you for taking the time to view this. I will try not to give you a head ache!

Note: the 14/2 Hot feed is introduced to the 3way in the first switch.
First the (Hot-Black)feed from the panel is tied to bypass the first switch and on out to the second switch through the black wire of the travelers and tied to the dark screw of the dead end 3 way. At this point it is sent back on one of the travelers (White or Red). Once returning to the first switch, the switch leg is tied to the dark screw of that switch. At this point the neutral is picked up and sent to the light. Do you see any ways to make this easier? Do you see any malfunctions? Thank you.

Okay...I've read this and re-read this, and just want to make sure I understand. To me, it sounds like you're pulling your hot and switch loop into the same box...then running 3 conductor from the first 3-way to your second? The switch leg connects to the first switch. Power is sent to the second 3-way via a wire in the 3 conductor. That hot goes to the common. The remaining two wires of the 3 conductor are used as your travellers--and as George said the white wire is remarked with tape. Am I understanding this correctly? Why is this called a dead-end 3-way?

Okay, now I have a question...It would still work if you switched the boxes for the power and switch leg, right? By this I mean send switch leg to the second box and keep the feed in the first one.

George, I'm kinda of unclear about what you're describing. What's a mid-switched 4-way?

apauling · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

paul: that's the best reason for using 14-3 (12-3). if all the locations get a set of 3 in and out, except ends, you can add to a 4 way, or 3 way without problems.

paul

George Stolz · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

Originally posted by physis:
George, pat yourself on the back. I loose interest in the English version of these descriptions right about the second half of the first sentence.

Look, Sam, I'm not here because I'm a whiz with the ladies, and don't get me started on your infinite calculus stuff...

Weird ways of switching stuff consumed my interest months ago. I actually drew them out on my computer. Yes, I am that big of a dork.

Midget, I think it's just an easy nickname for it. It's a dead end because nothing special's happening on one end, but the end with the switchleg has everything.

Okay, now I have a question...It would still work if you switched the boxes for the power and switch leg, right? By this I mean send switch leg to the second box and keep the feed in the first one.

Yeah, I call that a regular three-way.

The mid-switched 4-way results in the switchleg being in the box that physically contains the 4-way switch. Draw it out and you might find it clever. It can save you on box fill sometimes.

George Stolz · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

Originally posted by apauling:
easiest rule for simplicity is one location gets light and the other gets power.

I agree, in practice that's what I do. But's it's good practice to keep the ol' noodle in shape about weird ways of doing things in case we come up against a weird problem, right?

physis · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

George, as I get older I have less mental energy available to do the tedious logic work required to sort out these complicated cicuits. And I used to design PCB's.

al hildenbrand · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

aelectricalman,

Since your question is "economical" I would draw your attention to box capacity.

As you describe your set up, one box must be a minimum of 20 in? and the other a minimum of 12 in?.

Placing the feed in one switch and the switch leg in the other switch results in both boxes needing to be a minimum of 16 in?. In my opinion, this leads to less thought during installation and being able to work with one size of box. Less labor, more economy.

aelectricalman · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

Thanks to all who have helped. There can never be enough ways to wire a 3 way. Anyone wired a 7 way before. I guess once your past a 4 way, its all cut an dry, but it was pretty cool. Anyone top that?

al hildenbrand · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

My favorite, to date, is the "Travelling Bus" 3way:

aelectricalman · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

Would this be a 5 way? I am trying to figure this puppy out, but I want to make sure I'm looking at it right! Are you using THWN between the two 4 ways?

aelectricalman · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

I dont mean THWN but single strands.

al hildenbrand · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

The conductors between the 4ways would be whatever is appropriate for the situation, that is, open through the air, buried, in conduit, whatever. It could be 14/4 NM if the conditions are right. . .say, an enclosed "breezeway".

The important features:

The common terminals of two 3ways are connected together, and to nothing else.
Any number of 4ways may be used.
A branch circuit feed enters at one switch and leaves at the next switch, always hot. This is generally (but not always) advantageous at the last switch at one structure (house) and the first switch at the next structure (barn).
All the luminaires connected to this setup go on and off all together. Any single switch flip changes the status of all the luminaires.
This can also be used down an hallway, through a stairwell, etc.

apauling · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

interesting.

the most complicated I ever did was about 35+ 4 ways along a hall-entry. no problems except i switched a set of travelers in one 4 gang box. guy i was working for flipped. thought i left a wire out, but i knew what happened. had to stop my then boss from pulling the whole box apart.

i think if you do that kind of clever wiring, it should be documented on plans for future work.

paul

rattus · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

Is the 4 way switch available with 4 terminals, or do you have to use a DPDT with 6 terminals?

electricman2 · Dec 22, 2004

Re: Is my 3-way switch economical ?

Originally posted by rattus:
Is the 4 way switch available with 4 terminals, or do you have to use a DPDT with 6 terminals?

Just 4 terminals, the crossover connection is internal.

Is my 3-way switch economical ?

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