Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

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iwire

iwire

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Massachusetts
I often read posts here that say things like.

1) The older electricians where more skilled

2) The new guys do not 'know the code' like the old timers

3) The new guys are not trained enough

4) The new guys do not have the same ethics.

I think this is rubbish

Lets think about it for a minute, look at how much more complicated the NEC and the trade in general has become.

The old timers did not worry about listings, AIC ratings, overcurrent coordination, EMF and whole list of new products and code articles.

I am in no way putting down the old timers, only pointing out our trade is evolving and we expect a whole lot more from an electrician in 2005 than in 1950, 60 or 70. Add to that time to complete projects is only getting shorter.

As far as the training in my area the required training has done nothing but increase.

In MA before 1980 no school time was required, 2000 hours in the field as a apprentice and you could take the test. Now to test for a journeymen license we need 8000 hours in the field and 600 hours of school.

So my question is this.

Are the new trade members really that bad or is it that we just need them to know a whole lot more than when we joined the trade?
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

I'll bet the pyramid builders of ancient Egypt thought the younger generation of pyramid builders were unskilled also.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Bob, I think the quality and training is indeed going down. And I say that because I am part of the "new generation" that you are referring to.

Let me put it this way. All that training is good and having classroom instruction looks good on paper. The reality of it is something else. In one state that you are familiar with, all you have to do is have good attendance in your apprentice classes and you get a passing grade. There is no expectation or pressure put on you to learn the material. As long as you are a warm body in the classroom, you get credit for the year. This way, students are just "pushed through" from one year to the next.

Meanwhile, on the job, there is no guarantee they are learning the proper way to do things, because as we all know, learning from a journeyman or master is no gurantee that you are learning the "right" way to do something.

Personally, I think the system needs to be overhauled.


Another thing that concerns me is the motivation of many that have joined the trade. I don't run into too many people who genuinely want to be an electrician and love what they do. :(
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Originally posted by peter d:
In one state that you are familiar with, all you have to do is have good attendance in your apprentice classes and you get a passing grade. There is no expectation or pressure put on you to learn the material.
Click to expand...
And that is worse then having no school? :confused:

That makes no sense.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

I think that a big part of the problem is that the trade and the NEC have become more complex. Training now involves such a broad area that young electricians are more apt to know a little about a lot and a lot about little.


Then there is the issue of the code. It seems that from my experience here on this forum, that many times people with decades of using it still can't agree on what it means. It's too complex and written in a fashion that keeps the average sparky from truly understanding it.

I'd would guess that in the big picture electricians will need more and continued education. Gone are the days when you could grab a tool box simply walk on to a job as a neophyte apprentice and learn the trade from the guys that have been doing for years.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Bob not every one is as young as you and I,

BobandMike.jpg



A lot of the training of the up and coming young group has to do with the way they are trained on the job. We are living in a generation that is entirely different than what we came up in just as when we started. We are not allowed to yell at nor belittle the help as we were treated.

Bob has made some very important points in his post as to the schooling that I personally think that every electrician needs today. Some states have implemented a continuing education for contractors. Why not require this same training for all applicants to the trade? Theory is important in the field today even in residential.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

I agree with you 100% as it applies to ethical EC's.
I was observing a small development the other day. I guarantee most of the workers of all trades had none of the positive qualities you listed. I feel sorry for the prospective homeowners. A little drywall, siding, shingles and it's anyones guess what's underneath. :roll: Go ahead, ask about inspections :mad:
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Originally posted by infinity:
Gone are the days when you could grab a tool box simply walk on to a job as a neophyte apprentice and learn the trade from the guys that have been doing for years.
Click to expand...
And I think that in many ways that is a good thing. When I teach continuing education, there are many older electricians that simply don't know the code very well (on the contrary, some know it quite wel). With that in mind, I would prefer that younger electricians have to attend continuing education, as opposed to listening to the master/journeyman on the job and taking his word as gospel.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Originally posted by peter d:
Another thing that concerns me is the motivation of many that have joined the trade. I don't run into too many people who genuinely want to be an electrician and love what they do. :(
Click to expand...
Feel free to stop by if you are in my neck of the woods. I deliberately decided to become an electrician, and I'm glad I did. I love what I do.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Ok, so I admit to being very pessimistic. I just go by what I see though. Most of the kids who were in my apprentice class were more concerned where they were going to score their next hit of oxycontin or pot. Maybe I've had bad experiences and ran into a lot of people who don't care much about the trade. So my viewpoint is probably very skewed.

Regardless, I still live by my 10/80/10 rule. Out of a group of 100 electricians, 10 will excel, 80 will just get by with what they know, and 10 will be clueless and dangerous.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Originally posted by ryan_618:
...I would prefer that younger electricians have to attend continuing education, as opposed to listening to the master/journeyman on the job and taking his word as gospel.
Click to expand...
Well stated. In my short time I have discovered many instances where the "Gospel According to the Boss" has been absolutely wrong and absolutely unquestioned. We've taken on some new hires recently that have screwball ideas locked into their thinking - those accepted 'truths' are hard to dispel, sometimes even with the code references to refute them. :(
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

I think a big part of the problem is helpers are not helpers long enough, I love when I see an ad
in the paper for an electrician that says minimum
1 year experience, how in 1 years time can you have seen enough in this trade to be on your own,
I blame this problem on the contractors for not
providing the proper training & supervision that is required, many jobs I inspect it is obvious from the 2 page correction lists, the owner or
job foreman has never visited the site before scheduling an inspection and they rely on the inspector to do there job, and as we all know there are many inspectors who do not do there job
and would pass anything, so relying on an inspector might not be a good idea
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Originally posted by peter d:

Regardless, I still live by my 10/80/10 rule. Out of a group of 100 electricians, 10 will excel, 80 will just get by with what they know, and 10 will be clueless and dangerous.
Click to expand...
Your rule of thumb is closer to the truth than most can imagine. Having been an instructor for five years I see the same thing.

Story that relates:
I had a lady that graduated two years ago with a diploma in electrical (308 hours of class) and she is the assistant supervisor in the electrical department of her plant. She was the supervisor of the sanding department of a furniture plant for ten years. Her mind set from the beginning was she was going to succeed and she did.

The only way to succeed at any thing one has to want to.
:)
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Just a few thoughts.
When I started the trade in 1997 I was green but inquisitive. I recently finish the one hundred and fifty required hours for the Massachusetts Masters License. My instructor was one of my High Scool teachers. It was stated that the kids in school have little to no work ethic. I over hearded that you can't disipilin like it was years ago. They are getting babied. In my oppion that doesn't prepare them for the real world.
Years ago in Massachusetts the exam was not open book. As stated before, the requirments and expected standards for electricians today are greater.
I think because I was younger I had an open mind starting the trade. Some older gentalmen are more stuck in there old ways when started in the trade.
Education is the Key in life. The electrical trade isn't going any where. Society depends upon it.

Justin J. Walecka
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

I think the electrical trade has declined in some ways. BUT, I agree the trade is more complicated than it used to be. The problem is there is not enough people who want to make it a career. The people who did choose this path I think are more formally educated. With that being said, I have seen FAR too many instructors in the classroom who are not qualified to be there. That in turn makes bad electricians. If we don't have good teachers, inside the classroom or out, it will continue to decline. I have been in this trade since birth. My family, both father and mother's side, were electricians and electrical inspectors. It is all I can do to keep up with the changes. I look back to find even they, the ones who I thought was the elite, missed the mark on some issues. Why? Because they didn't have the formal training to the degree we have today. They went through the only apprenticeship at the time, the IBEW. That was it back then. The rest was OJT, which is needed but shouldn't be supplemented. But things change over time and you need to keep up. In closing, We have better ONGOING training than back then, but less people want to do this job and are less dedicated to the cause. I blame some the problem on technology itself. Conduit bending is a lost art. Alot of electricians can't bend it anymore. Cables have dominated the market and when a pipe job is needed, they are lost. Technology has made things so easy for us the basics are lost. And I am very serious about the bad instructors. As an inspector, I fight this constantly. "So and so said you were wrong", "So and so told me in class I don't need to "ground" that box if I run EMT". I myself am an instructor and I am not saying I am right all the time, but we should all know the basics. There is another con to this. Some state electrical test are a joke, and there is no minimum requirement to get them. Now this will vary from state to state and I live in TN. You can send your secretary, who is a good test taker, to take the test to become your qualifying agent. The master can be anyone. Only the contractor must show experience. You shouldn't be able to test without 5 years provable experience in the field you apply for, i.e. commercial, residential, etc. In other words, would have to prove 5 years commercial to get a commercial license. Just take a class, take the test, Bam, your a master electrician. I am sorry but it is sad. If you want proof, just check out my code blunder page on my website at www.electricaled.com. These are just a FEW pictures of what I deal with daily. Most were done by electricians, some masters. All we can do is teach the ones who love it, and persuade others to mow yards! Just my opinion.

[ October 01, 2005, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: necbuff ]
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

All of the points made are good ones. I think this "quality" problem (craftsman) is not just an electrical or construction problem. Heck, I see cashiers that can't make change. Example, I owed $6.21 for something I bought. I gave the cashier $21.25, she asked me what I gave her that amount of money for (looking very confused as to how to proceed). I had to tell her she owed me $15 (no ones please) and 4 cents.

The point is the "dumbing down of America" is for real. Very sad, but VERY real! (Dang, spell check doesn't like "dumbing", I sure hope I got it right, don't want to look like a dummy!)
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Some comments are worth repeating.
1. The NEC has gotten more complicated and it is written in a strange format. Those with many years experience have difficulty trying to discover the meaning of the article. Some are written in positive language others are written in negative language. Are teh CMP trying to justify their existence or do they truly not understand what they are doing to the industry?

2. More is expected out of electricians today. BIG wire is sexy. Ask the 1st year apprentice. He/she wants to pull/push/tug big wire. Spend some time developing your skills with the "regular" stuff.

3. School is a waste of time. No it is not. Even if the instructor is talking about his divorce. Talk to the other students, compare notes on what kind of jobs all of you have been doing. "My journeyman did this...." "Mine too!"

4. Sometimes the "old" guys take short cuts. Not how we learned it in school. True. Is it safe? Is it Code Compliant? Is it neat? If you can answer yes to each then learn the short cut.

5. New materials new techniques. Split bolt or splicing block? I prefer the splicing block. Faster, cleaner, easier, neater, safer, etc. I ahven't used a split bolt for a splice in 15 years or so.

6. 10/80/10 RIGHT ON the money!

7. People expect more for less. no comment!

FYI I've been in the trade since 1975, which happens to be my first NEC. The NEC was a lot smaller. Was it safer? I don't know. Things change. In fact the theory of electricity changed. Used to be current flow was + to -, now it is - to +.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Originally posted by tshea:

FYI I've been in the trade since 1975, which happens to be my first NEC. The NEC was a lot smaller. Was it safer? I don't know. Things change. In fact the theory of electricity changed. Used to be current flow was + to -, now it is - to +.
Click to expand...
Current flow is the movement of electrons. Electrons have a negative charge. The nucleolus is made up of the neutron and proton with the proton having a positive charge. I don?t see how anyone can believe that current flows any other way but from negative to positive. I started in the trade in 1968.

The only people that I know that think different are TV repair men. :D
:D
 
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