Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

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Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Originally posted by mark32:
He just said he does it all the time and walked away.
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So when he woke up, did you explain that the blow you struck to the back of his head from the 2x4 would have been cushioned had he either when wearing a hard hat or been thicker skulled? :mad:

Something you put on a horse?
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Why, does he have short legs? He could still use a stool.
1GeorgeShyAnn.jpg
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

my experience is mixed but for the most part I find the younger guys are easier to work with and deal with newer things with a lot less hassle than the 20+ year guy.

i am about sick of hearing how the engineers don't know %%%% because the old timer just does not understand the new stuff.

the newer guys seem less hung up on the past as well.

they also seem to understand schematics that seems to be a major issue with the older guys.

on the other hand, there is absolutely no substitute for experience when it comes to hanging pipe. some of the old timers make it look so easy and so pretty.

but i have a very narrow POV. I work on automation systems and its a tiny part of the typical electrican's work load.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

I'm a combo inspector with an electrical background. The encouraging thing is, I see more NEC books on a job site than any other code books by far. I just hope the electricians are reading it. :)
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

The main problem I see is that many workers are not staying in the trade because of lower pay. The number of years of experience on a job is lower. There is more to being an electrician than just running some conduit or twisting a wire nut. Safety is a big part and it can take a number of years and varied experience to recognize certain hazards. I have been doing electrical work for over 30 years and I am still learning. The only time in my life when I knew it all was when I had five years in the trade.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Growler posted:
The only time in my life when I knew it all was when I had five years in the trade.
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Boy Howdy! Ain't that the truth.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

"Is the skill and training really going down hill?"

I think it depends on whether you're looking from the bottom up or from the top down. Most of us are probably standing somewhere along the hillside.

Advances in technology and discovery in recent years and/or decades has resulted in a technology boom and the hill is getting steeper.

Skill comes with experience and I think there is a lot of skill out there but I also think it takes more experience today to reach the same relative level of skill in the industry. What was once a rolling hill is rapidly becoming a mountain.

Training is a difficult thing. I find that I can receive all the training available but until I learn the skills and apply it, the training can be easily forgotten.

Bob
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

The only time in my life when I knew it all was when I had five years in the trade.
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I think it was a little before that...when we we teenagers!!
Don
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

I started mine with my Gilbert Fun With Electricity set Christmas of 3rd Grade. That made me about 13. :D
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

I agree wholeheartedly with the pay issue. My starting pay was so abysmal that another trade's offer seemed rather inviting, however, I love the work I do so I obviously stayed in. The saddest part of this to me is that with over 1 year in, I am getting paid less than what some convenience store employees make- and I am entrusted with the electrical safety of someone's home or business.

Once again today, one of my crew members proved that there are those that do not care about quality and code. His stapling job was so poor, that I had the foreman speak with him about it. There are some good ones though, my newest in is a friend from the National Guard, and his attention to detail and quality are most appreciated. Gotta get ready soon for my 4 year school...


Mike
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

WOW!! This is a really good subject. I have just made it through all the threads and I like to see the passion that is shown.... My turn...

The apprentice training school I attend has some of the same issues I read about in these threads. As long as the guys show up to class they seem to keep passing. I bust my a** to read my book and more, and I will NOT accept a 70% on my test, I am so tired of hearing "Hey 70% is passing ain't it" My class is one year away from graduation and most of the guys in my class still can't find table 310.16 in their code book, let-a-lone use it. Now before I get yelled at, I am not saying they are just stupid. I am saying they lack the willingness to apply themselves and the school is so wrong for not failing a student if he/she deserves to fail. If reading the NEC gets in the way of their personal life and their life in the electrical world stops when the work day stops, then I am not sure I want them in my trade. I am an electrician 24hrs seven days a week. Ok, so I'm anal about the electrical trade, I read the NEC for fun, I admit it. But who on this form can't walk into a room or store or garage and start looking for code violations? IMO the younger people now days (gee I sound like my Dad) think of the electrical trade as just a job and not what it means to be able to do what we do.....That makes me sad :( :(
Hope I didn't rant to much.....

[ October 05, 2005, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: kevinware ]
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Ok Kevin, you are one sick fellow, there is no hope for you now. You caught the bug and are now a cronic case. There will be no building that you can safely walk into because your eyes will dart about looking. Welcome to the club. :)
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

This is a very interesting thread!
Why would a young man want to be an electrician nowdays? I'd like to hear some reasons why.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Why would a young man want to be an electrician nowdays?
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...To see your enemies crushed before you,
and to hear the lamentation of the women!

-Conan, Conan the Barbarian
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My answer would be, 'Satisfaction in a job well done, with a side order of keeping the brain busy with the more engaging aspects of the job.'

Don't know why the scene from Conan popped into my head... :D
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Whew!!!
Just read all 53 replies! What a great topic!
A couple of things to build upon:
The money issue:
Yeah, in starting out in the electrical trade the pay is quite lacking. Someone on a job nailed it when he said, "you really have to want to be an electrician" during the early years of your career because the pay is so bad. Which is kind of a double edged sword. This may be what drives some sharp folks away. Not the only factor of course, but just another angle.

I agree with Bob in that things are probably 'business as usual'. There are probably more unethical folks out there, but then there are more people in general -including electricians. Hopefully though, the percentage of unethical folks (at least in the electrical trade) has decreased.

It is truly up to the individual, what is done with any training provided as stated earlier with the 10/80/10 generalization (I'm a little more optimistic: 20/70/10). I've seen some sad excuses for electricians run through some good training. But then, some really shine. I don't figure it was any different 30 or 40 years ago. People are still people. There's just more of 'em today. :)

[ October 05, 2005, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: tepres ]
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

I agree with George's answer, plus I happen to like the physical aspect of the work. I used to be a cubicle slave, but now I'm much happier crawling through attics and basements. I'm often tired at the end of the day, but it's a good tired.

There are a lot of things I like about this line of work. I get to meet and work with lots of different people, I get to do different things and go different places every day, I get to use really cool tools :cool: , I get to make people's houses better, I never have to wear a tie ...

I've found that this is an occupation where you really can get out of it what you put into it. I take pride in my work and really enjoy it, and I think that probably appeals to the people who hire me. As a consumer, that's who I'd want to do work on my house.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Originally posted by tepres:
Whew!!!

I agree with Bob in that things are probably 'business as usual'. There are probably more unethical folks out there, but then there are more people in general -including electricians. Hopefully though, the percentage of unethical folks (at least in the electrical trade) has decreased.

It is truly up to the individual, what is done with any training provided as stated earlier with the 10/80/10 generalization (I'm a little more optimistic: 20/70/10). I've seen some sad excuses for electricians run through some good training. But then, some really shine. I don't figure it was any different 30 or 40 years ago. People are still people. There's just more of 'em today. :)
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I have noticed in the past few years, less and less young people are staying with our trade. I don't know if it's because college is seriously pushed on young students, or the hard work just isn't appealing to our youth. In the last year our turnover rate on first year apprentices has gone through the roof. I think out of the 10 guys I have had, we kept 1 (he happens to be 28 years old, and over the party stage). I am not saying that all men straight out of high school aren't motivated, I just think the next generation isn't interested in labor/skilled labor jobs.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

My reason for choosing to learn to be an electrician is that it is something that has always facinated me. I spoke with my mom the other day and she told me that my very first word was "light" as I pointed to an overhead fixture(lame I know...). I am one of the "younger" or "next" generation, ~23. I look forward to going to work each day, there is always something new to learn, or a problem to be solved.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

1) This is a craft not a job.
2) We let the craft become just a job; like flipping burgers.
3) No respect for the craft, how often do we in the field do all the engineers job,architects,man power, you name it. The lack of good prints and real time to do a job by code (minimum).We have dots on a page with an arrow, all the rest of the trades have more or less paint by numbers and less code. The G.C., etc. never see that idea due to our own low balling every job to keep cash flow.
Ever hear "yes but it's just a pipe to here a couple minuets, I don't see the problem." as you open up a 11/4" thick wall to fix it. Yet you still have an open RFI from 2 months ago about that!
Extras! prefixed price at bid time so when they come you pull a man from hard contract money, lose time he would be on the work in the dead line; you wont be getting more men so it is lost time in the long run.
4)If your non Union you must cull the men, if Union
you must cull the men , and make due with what you have. Like 1st. year apprentice that drove truck and now he is a 2nd year and never had a tool in his hand untill today. How about, for the non Union guys I have been both so I do know, "Yes I wired the Pentagon had 4000 men under me." only to find the guy couldn't wire his way out of a paper bag.
Teach? learn on your own time; is how some contractors look at it.
Jobs don't need skills,but a craft needs craftsmen.
5) And last spoiled kids who think they are owed and know it all, make it hard to teach a difficult craft that adds more technologies to it almost all the time.

Sorry had a rough day.
 
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