Is this a kitchen counter?

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mkgrady

Senior Member
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Massachusetts
The home owner added a granite shelf to what is being called a foyer which is next to the new kitchen I wired. The shelf is 70" long and is a big arc that is 18" deep at its widest point. The shelf surface is 39" high and sits on brackets supported from the wall.

The inspector is requiring a countertop recept because he claims it's a kitchen counter. I wonder why he doesn't require two based on his theory.

The homeowner REALLY doesn't want a receptacle above this shelf. They plan to use the shelf to leave car keys, gloves, note pad, etc. I am hoping to convince the inspector that it is not a counter and or it is not in the kitchen.

I'll try to describe the layout. I wish I new how to post a sketch. You walk into this part of the house from a side entrance door. You are now in a foyer that has a laundry area to your left, a small bathroom is in the far left corner a short hallway straight ahead that leads to a closet, a right turn leads you to the kitchen, on your way to the kitchen you pass the shelf on your left, behind the shelf wall is the closet previously mentioned. As you pass the end of the shelf you enter the kitchen.

Any ideas on how to change the inspectors mind?

Mike
 
Is there a doorway that you pass, after you go beyond the shelf, and before you enter the kitchen? That would be the clearest indicator I can think of to prove that the shelf is not in the kitchen.

The other approach I would suggest is to state the (obvious, I should think) fact that kitchen countertop surfaces are universally 25 inches deep. That is because they are designed to sit upon cabinets, and the cabinet makers have adopted the 25 inch dimension as the standard basis for the cabinet depth. This shelf is not a countertop, simply because it is not the standard depth, and because there is no provision for a cabinet underneath.

I see this area as being covered in 210.52(H), Hallways, so that only one receptacle is needed in the entire area.
 
Are there plans ??, they may also indicate the area as a hallway. I would advise the h.O. to stand tall and refuse his demand,... I know in Ma. it is the home owner/agent of the H.O. , that gets to decide what a space is ...
 
charlie b said:
Is there a doorway that you pass, after you go beyond the shelf, and before you enter the kitchen? That would be the clearest indicator I can think of to prove that the shelf is not in the kitchen.

The other approach I would suggest is to state the (obvious, I should think) fact that kitchen countertop surfaces are universally 25 inches deep. That is because they are designed to sit upon cabinets, and the cabinet makers have adopted the 25 inch dimension as the standard basis for the cabinet depth. This shelf is not a countertop, simply because it is not the standard depth, and because there is no provision for a cabinet underneath.

I see this area as being covered in 210.52(H), Hallways, so that only one receptacle is needed in the entire area.
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No, no doorway to the kitchen. It's an open area. Once you walk by the shelf you are in the kitchen.

I was hoping the dimensions of the shelf would deem it not a counter and or claim it is not in the kitchen. What is ironic is that I placed a recept under the shelf in case the inspector deemed the space a hallway.

If I knew the shelf was going there I might have called the inspector for his take before I wired the place, but probably not, because it doesn't seem like the kitchen or a counter.
 
If this thing is a large arc, 18 inches at its widest point, then as you get further from that widest point the shelf gets more and more narrow. I don't think you can safely put a kitchen appliance on that shelf, as the appliance could easily get knocked off a narrow space. That is, I believe, the reason countertops have a standard 25 inch depth - to make sure there is room to put a coffee pot or food processor or crock pot. Giving the HO the ability to place such appliances on the countertop surface is the only reason to put receptacles behind the countertop. Since there is no way to safely use appliances on that shelf surface, it is clearly not intended to be a kitchen countertop.

How about trying this: You could say that it would be dangerous to put receptacles there. You could ask the inspector to certify that it is safe, put the liability directly upon him, and see how he reacts.
 
mkgrady said:
..... I wish I new how to post a sketch. .....

Any ideas on how to change the inspectors mind?

Mike
Click to expand...

Figure out how to post a sketch

PS After you figure it out, tell me how to do it
 
charlie b How about trying this: You could say that it would be dangerous to put receptacles there. You could ask the inspector to certify that it is safe said:
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I like the idea, Thanks Charlie

Let's see if there are any other ideas.
 
IMHO I would include a countertop receptacle as an added convenience. So the HO plans on using it to place "car keys, gloves, note pad, etc." Does the etc include a cell phone, PDA, or other electronic device that would need a receptacle close by for charging? Just a thought on how to spin it to the HO. Good luck with the inspector.

G :)
 
mkgrady said:
The home owner added a granite shelf to what is being called a foyer which is next to the new kitchen I wired. The shelf is 70" long and is a big arc that is 18" deep at its widest point. The shelf surface is 39" high and sits on brackets supported from the wall.

The inspector is requiring a countertop recept because he claims it's a kitchen counter. I wonder why he doesn't require two based on his theory.

The homeowner REALLY doesn't want a receptacle above this shelf. They plan to use the shelf to leave car keys, gloves, note pad, etc. I am hoping to convince the inspector that it is not a counter and or it is not in the kitchen.

I'll try to describe the layout. I wish I new how to post a sketch. You walk into this part of the house from a side entrance door. You are now in a foyer that has a laundry area to your left, a small bathroom is in the far left corner a short hallway straight ahead that leads to a closet, a right turn leads you to the kitchen, on your way to the kitchen you pass the shelf on your left, behind the shelf wall is the closet previously mentioned. As you pass the end of the shelf you enter the kitchen.

Any ideas on how to change the inspectors mind?

Mike
Click to expand...


I quoted your post in it's entirety. From what I read this does not have any definition of a kitchen countertop.
 
Guinness said:
IMHO I would include a countertop receptacle as an added convenience.
Click to expand...
That's a good thought, but let's not call it by that name. It would be a "shelf receptacle." If the HO likes the idea, then it becomes an extra for the EC. But if the HO still doesn't want any receptacles, it would not be right for the Inspector to force them to be installed.

This idea did bring one more thought to my mind, however. Suppose, briefly, that the inspector continues to insist that this thing is a kitchen countertop. That would bring to the party the 210.52(C)(1) requirement that it have no point further than 24 inches from the nearest receptacle. With a 70 inch long "counter," that would mean that you need at least two receptacles. That in turn would certainly mean that at least one would be in a narrow section of the surface. I see this as adding fuel to the fire of my earlier comment about it being dangerous to put a receptacle in an area such that the HO could plug in a coffee pot and it could fall off the narrow space.
 
I am pretty sure 08 has a new requirement treating counters in the dinning room as a kitchen counter. I can't reference it though.

But what the op has described sound's like a shelf to me.
Sounds like the HO just liked the look of the granite.
 
mkgrady said:
You walk into this part of the house from a side entrance door. You are now in a foyer that has a laundry area to your left, a small bathroom is in the far left corner a short hallway straight ahead that leads to a closet, a right turn leads you to the kitchen, on your way to the kitchen you pass the shelf on your left, behind the shelf wall is the closet previously mentioned. As you pass the end of the shelf you enter the kitchen.
Click to expand...
Mike, just to clarify, lemme ask you a question: is the shelf around a corner from the kitchen? In oither words, if you have your back to the wall with the shelf, are you facing the kitchen, or another wall?

From your description, it sounds like the wall across from the shelf is the front wall of the house, making this area a hallway. If it's part of the kitchen, why wouldn't the inspector require 20a SA circuits for the foyer?

I agree that the house plans define the room boundaries. Another way to define the area: Does the flooring change between the foyer and the kitchen? Does the paint change color? Where does it end? :-?


Added: I have a feeling the inspector is drawing on an "if this were my house . . . " mentality, which is cute and all, but not within his job description.
 
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Mike

It sounds to me that you need to convince the inspector that the "shelf" is in the foyer and not the kitchen. I can not find any depth requirements in 210-52 (C) that would exclude a receptacle being installed. Is the 18" dimension at the center tapering to the ends or the other way around?

Joe
 
M. D. said:
Are there plans ??, they may also indicate the area as a hallway. I would advise the h.O. to stand tall and refuse his demand,... I know in Ma. it is the home owner/agent of the H.O. , that gets to decide what a space is ...
Click to expand...

There were plans in the beginning but they changed so radically they seem meaningless
 
Guinness said:
IMHO I would include a countertop receptacle as an added convenience. So the HO plans on using it to place "car keys, gloves, note pad, etc." Does the etc include a cell phone, PDA, or other electronic device that would need a receptacle close by for charging? Just a thought on how to spin it to the HO. Good luck with the inspector.

G :)
Click to expand...

The home owner wants me to do anything I can to avoid adding the recept. They just don't want it.
 
dcspector said:
I quoted your post in it's entirety. From what I read this does not have any definition of a kitchen countertop.
Click to expand...

I think my problem is I can't find a definition of a Kitchen counter top. And even if this fits the definition the shelf isn't in the kitchen, dining, pantry or similar spaces.
 
charlie b said:

That's a good thought, but let's not call it by that name. It would be a "shelf receptacle." If the HO likes the idea, then it becomes an extra for the EC. But if the HO still doesn't want any receptacles, it would not be right for the Inspector to force them to be installed.

This idea did bring one more thought to my mind, however. Suppose, briefly, that the inspector continues to insist that this thing is a kitchen countertop. That would bring to the party the 210.52(C)(1) requirement that it have no point further than 24 inches from the nearest receptacle. With a 70 inch long "counter," that would mean that you need at least two receptacles. That in turn would certainly mean that at least one would be in a narrow section of the surface. I see this as adding fuel to the fire of my earlier comment about it being dangerous to put a receptacle in an area such that the HO could plug in a coffee pot and it could fall off the narrow space.
Click to expand...

I agre with all that but I don't want to discuss the two recept theory because I'm concerned he will require two.
 
LarryFine said:
Mike, just to clarify, lemme ask you a question: is the shelf around a corner from the kitchen? In oither words, if you have your back to the wall with the shelf, are you facing the kitchen, or another wall?

From your description, it sounds like the wall across from the shelf is the front wall of the house, making this area a hallway. If it's part of the kitchen, why wouldn't the inspector require 20a SA circuits for the foyer?

I agree that the house plans define the room boundaries. Another way to define the area: Does the flooring change between the foyer and the kitchen? Does the paint change color? Where does it end? :-?


Added: I have a feeling the inspector is drawing on an "if this were my house . . . " mentality, which is cute and all, but not within his job description.
Click to expand...

With your back to the shelf the kitchen is to the left and the outside wall is straight ahead. Looking a few feet to the right of straight ahead is the door to the outside.

The flooring and colors of the entire area (bathroom, laundry, closet, foyer, kitchen are all the same. What changes when you walk into the kitchen is the ceiling height. It's about 18" higher
 
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