Is this a kitchen counter?

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stickboy1375 said:
CAn you take some pics so we get the full deal of what your dealing with? I'm just curious as to what the inspector sees.
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I get why you are curious ,..but it is the regulated and not the regulator that decides what the space is ,..and what it is not.
 
M. D. said:
I get why you are curious ,..but it is the regulated and not the regulator that decides what the space is ,..and what it is not.
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I am not following you here or with your other post.

A homeowner can not build a kitchen then call it a living room and avoid the NEC rules for kitchens.

By the same token a HO can not build a kitchen and call it a hallway. (I am not saying the OP has a kitchen)

I read the Q&A you posted but that is not without limitation. If the HO has prints indicating an area is a kitchen they have made the choice that area is kitchen.
 
iwire said:
I am not following you here or with your other post.

A homeowner can not build a kitchen then call it a living room and avoid the NEC rules for kitchens.

By the same token a HO can not build a kitchen and call it a hallway. (I am not saying the OP has a kitchen)

I read the Q&A you posted but that is not without limitation. If the HO has prints indicating an area is a kitchen they have made the choice that area is kitchen.
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I agree
Some posted before that it's a problem that the NEC doesn't define kitchen counter. . It's not really a problem because it defines kitchen and the kitchen counter is in the kitchen.

Kitchen needs 3 things:
1] sink
2] cooking
3] permanent facilities for food preparation
and you prepare food on a food counter

So is the counter a food prep counter or not ? . Is it located that it could be reasonably used for food prep ?

All the time I see desk counters [that are lower than the kitchen food prep counter] within the same "room" [defined by walls] as the kitchen and don't define them as food prep facilities.
 
dnem said:
Kitchen needs 3 things:
1] sink
2] cooking
3] permanent facilities for food preparation
and you prepare food on a food counter

So is the counter a food prep counter or not ? . Is it located that it could be reasonably used for food prep ?
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I don't see anything that says a counter in a kitchen that is not intended for food prep is not a 'kitchen counter'

If it is a counter top and it's in the kitchen it is a kitchen counter top regardless of it's intended purpose.

The problem in my mind is defining where a kitchen ends and 'other' begins with open home designs.
 
iwire said:
I am not following you here or with your other post.

A homeowner can not build a kitchen then call it a living room and avoid the NEC rules for kitchens.

By the same token a HO can not build a kitchen and call it a hallway. (I am not saying the OP has a kitchen)

I read the Q&A you posted but that is not without limitation. If the HO has prints indicating an area is a kitchen they have made the choice that area is kitchen.
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What I am saying is ,..there are plans,... find out what they indicate the space as ,..If there is no detail for this space it is the H.O. that decides what to call it ,..not the inspector. They obviously do not view it as a kitchen space. A dwelling requires a "kitchen" ,..but how big it is and what shape it takes,. is up to the H.O. to a large degree.

I had a sister that once rented a two room apt. there were several spaces ,. kitcken , living ,and sleeping spaces , no interior walls , no doors ,.except for the bathroom and entrance , was it all a kitchen ,...was it all a sleeping area ???

I wonder how this inspector would like it wired??
 
Definition of countertop from the American Heritage College Dictionary 3rd Edition:

A level surface on a cabinet or display case, as in a kitchen or department store.

A shelf is not a countertop, according to the english language. That's two dictionarys now that said a countertop is built on a cabinet. If the AHJ doesn't have to go by the meaning of the words, then any section can mean anything and the entire codebook is meaningless.

Show the guy a dictionary.

Edit: and I don't care whether the shelf is in the kitchen or not. It's a darned shelf. code don't say nuthin' about shelves.
 
Just take the shelf down. If the homeowners want to add a shelf later, that's a different story.
 
mivey said:
Just take the shelf down. If the homeowners want to add a shelf later, that's a different story.
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ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! If the shelf sits on brackets, just remove the shelf and put it back when the EI is done and gone.

Beautiful!:grin:
 
crossman said:
ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! If the shelf sits on brackets, just remove the shelf and put it back when the EI is done and gone.

Beautiful!:grin:
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I say ugly, underhanded and unnecessary.
 
iwire said:
To me that is unethical, but we each have to make that decision for ourselves.
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By definition it is not even a countertop I don't see how it is considered unethical , especially if definitions and formal interpretations don't work.
 
M. D. said:
By definition it is not even a countertop I don't see how it is considered unethical , especially if definitions and formal interpretations don't work.
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Here is what I think, there are two possibilities, the inspector is either correct or mistaken

1)If the the inspector is correct then hiding the violation is without question unethical and I would bet a violtion of the laws in any state.

2)If the inspector is mistaken (and I think they may be) there is no need to hide it. Show the inspector the code and in this case the dictionary. Call the head building official etc.



But IMO in either case choosing to hide things from the inspector is unprofessional and unethical.

That is my personal opinion, it is neither wrong or right but it is my unchanging opinion. We each have to work up to our own standards and lying to get by is not in my SOP.
 
crossman said:
It is even more unethical when an EI enforces something that isn't in the code!:smile:
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More unethical?

No.

The inspectors actions could be attributed to lack of knowledge or a misunderstanding of the NEC

An ECs hiding a possible violation from inspection can only be attributed to intentional deception.
 
iwire said:
But IMO in either case choosing to hide things from the inspector is unprofessional and unethical.
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I agree with Bob in this and in his other recent postings. This is not about getting by; it is about doing what is right. A "win" in this situation does not require removal of the question, but rather convincing the inspector of the right answer to the question.
 
iwire said:
Here is what I think, there are two possibilities, the inspector is either correct or mistaken....

....But IMO in either case choosing to hide things from the inspector is unprofessional and unethical.
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Iwire, you are entirely correct and I agree with you. Still, it is fun to act like we can put one over on the InspEcToR.
 
iwire said:
The inspectors actions could be attributed to lack of knowledge or a misunderstanding of the NEC

An ECs hiding a possible violation from inspection can only be attributed to intentional deception.
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Okay, okay! I agree with you! We shouldn't hide the shelf!:smile:

But it is still fun to think about doing it!:grin:
 
iwire said:
To me that is unethical, but we each have to make that decision for ourselves.
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Stonethrower!:grin:

While it might be easier, the world is not all black and white.

We have to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong. If there is going to be a big stew over the shelf that was added, then just remove it.

If I knew it was a shelf and not in a kitchen, I would have no problem with the decision. There may be something about this install that is questionable but I guess a sketch would help. If I had a doubt, then I would make a different decision.

I have no problem telling the homeowner that the inspector will not allow me to have the shelf without a receptacle and that unless they remove the shelf, a receptacle will have to be added (assuming the AHJ will not budge).
 
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