Is this a kitchen counter?

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mivey said:
How many of you recommended that the customer hurry to get their permits under the 2005 NEC so they could avoid the 2008 NEC? Were you violating the law or working around the law? Do you feel ethically dirty for having done so?
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I have, the latter, and clean as a whistle.
 
This is what the appeal process is ,.. I wish it were a simple as a phone call , but in Massachusetts nothing is that easy

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21.03: Filing an Appeal
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(1) Written Appeal.
Any person aggrieved by a notice, interpretation, order, requirement, or direction of an Inspector of Wires or other person charged with the enforcement of the rules and regulations of the Board of Fire Prevention Regulations may, within ten (10) days after notice thereof, appeal to the Board. Such appeal shall be in writing and state all matters pertinent to the appeal, including a copy of the Inspector's written notice of disapproval of the subject electrical work.
(2) Fee.
The fee for filing an appeal shall be that set by the Secretary of Administration and Finance of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and may be paid by check or money order payable to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
(3) Hearings
(a) Scheduling of Hearings. Upon receipt of an appeal filed in compliance with this section, the Board shall schedule a hearing.
(b) Conduct of Hearings. The hearings held by the Board shall be conducted in accordance with the State Administrative Procedure Act, M.G.L. c. 30A, and the Standard Adjudicatory Rules of Practice and Procedure, 801 CMR 1.01 et seq. The Board shall hear all pertinent evidence and shall make findings of fact based on such evidence.
(c) Decision and Order. The Board shall issue a written decision and order reversing, affirming, or modifying, in whole or in part, the notice, interpretation, order, requirement, or direction of the Inspector of Wires. The Board shall send a copy of the completed decision by certified mail to all parties.
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http://forums.mikeholt.com/</H3>
 
So you have ten days,.. after which I guess it is tough noogies ,..and then there is a fee ,.. $75.00 plus a day spent in Boston at some later date which may or may not be convenient ,... so $500.00 dollars ,.. worth it??? I don't think so

mkgrady ,..do yourself a favor ,... advise them to take the shelf down get your inspection and let the inspector reflect on it....


How can I appeal the decision of a wiring inspector?
In order to appeal the decision of a wiring inspector, please submit:
  • a request in writing regarding the appeal to the Board of Electricians’ Appeals, 239 Causeway Street, Suite 500, Boston, MA 02114.
  • the notice of disapproval received by the wiring inspector
  • a check or money order for $75 made payable to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
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Larry would you still be as "feisty" if you lived in the great Commonwealth of Massachusetts????
 
Somebody needs to have an open discussion with this inspector. . Removing the counter/shelf only puts off the question until something else comes up that can't just be taken down and put back up later.

Is he enforcing the NEC or just "shooting from the hip" ? . Is this counter/shelf call his interpretation of the NEC or does he have the attitude that he decides what he wants to see ?
 
dnem said:
Somebody needs to have an open discussion with this inspector. . Removing the counter/shelf only puts off the question until something else comes up that can't just be taken down and put back up later.

Is he enforcing the NEC or just "shooting from the hip" ? . Is this counter/shelf call his interpretation of the NEC or does he have the attitude that he decides what he wants to see ?
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That is true, but I'm sure the homeowner is more interested in getting on with their life rather than trying to cure the ills of society.

Fixing this inspector may require extended treatments.
 
dnem said:
Somebody needs to have an open discussion with this inspector. . ...
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As I have said ,..sometimes ,..especially with the process that has been put in place ,.. the inspectors are not always open to the idea of open discussions..

Not sure this board would be all that happy to meet about this either ,, pretty small fish ,.. the process seems designed to discourage challenges to the inspector of wires,...
 
M. D. said:
Why ?? are we not free to decide if we do or do not want,.. a shelf in our homes??? and for that matter when or why we want it removed????

This is just ,....total bovine excrement!!
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Crossman,.. I feel an explanation is in order ,...I was just venting and was speaking more to the issue as a whole ,..when I used the term "this" ,.
I apologize ,...I enjoy reading what you have to say and I hope you were not offended ... I'll try to avoid such expressions in the future.
 
M. D. said:
I apologize ,...I enjoy reading what you have to say and I hope you were not offended ... I'll try to avoid such expressions in the future.
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Hey, no offense taken at all. I would hope that each of us would have passion for our arguments and positions. That is what makes for an interesting site. Thank you for being a part of it. :smile:
 
It's over.

It's over.

I called the inspector.

This is what was said "It doesn't cost me anything to put the recept above the shelf, my work here is T&M, but I don't think it is needed to meet code and my customer really doesn't want it. They plan to use it for car keys, gloves, note pad. etc,. There is no plan to use the shelf to prepare food. You must admit it is at least controversial that it is required." He firmly said "it is a kitchen counter and it needs a receptacle".

I said "Don't take this the wrong way but my customer wants to appeal this and I want to know what steps are involved to do that". After a short pause he said " OK I'll sign off on it". I thanked him.

I don't think he thought he was wrong. I think he was being conservative in his approach, but I think he thought it was a fight he would more than likely loose. I'm just glad it is over.

Thanks to all for all the advice. It was very helpful
 
RE: Considering that the inspector has already seen the shelf, it is best not to remove it......

M. D. said:
Why ?? are we not free to decide if we do or do not want,.. a shelf in our homes??? and for that matter when or why we want it removed????
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Just so I can explain my thoughts...

I was looking from a practical standpoint of an EC who may be doing more work in this EI's jurisdiction... I wasn't looking at any philosophical ideology or something. Say the EI comes back to do the final inspection and he remembers about the shelf, but now it is gone:

EI: "Hey, where is the kitchen counter that was here?"

EC: "Homeowner decided they didn't want it."

EI: "Oh really? Why are the bracket rails still on the wall?"

EC: "Err... they haven't taken them down yet because the sheetrock guy won't be back to repair the wall 'til next week. Then they'll take the rails down."

EI thinks to himself: "Well that stinking liar. :mad: I am gonna totally bust his butt if he ever does work in this jurisdiction again."

That is what I was thinking, if I had been the EC. No damage done to freedom, the pursuit of happiness, or the American Way. Just being selfish and looking out for myself and my future.
 
crossman said:
EI thinks to himself: "Well that stinking liar. :mad: I am gonna totally bust his butt if he ever does work in this jurisdiction again."
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An inspector is just a man, not a god. I would never just kowtow to an incorrect inspector's whims. Talk about unethical behavior.

It's just as illegal for an inspector to fail work that is compliant as it is for one to pass work that is non-compliant.

I never say "Oh, no, here comes the inspector again. I hope I did everything right this time."

I want the inspector to say "Oh, no, I have to inspect this guy's work. I hope I do everything right this time."
 
mkgrady said:
After a short pause he said " OK I'll sign off on it".
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There's still something funny about this. If he was correct, he shouldn't have caved to avoid an appeal, just as I wouldn't cave to avoid one.

I don't think he thought he was wrong. I think he thought it was a fight he would more than likely loose.
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If we wasn't wrong, he shouldn't have worried about losing the fight.
 
RE: I thinks to himself: "Well that stinking liar. :mad: I am gonna totally bust his butt if he ever does work in this jurisdiction again."

LarryFine said:
An inspector is just a man, not a god. I would never just kowtow to an incorrect inspector's whims. Talk about unethical behavior.
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Geez, I feel like I am taking a beating in this thread! Larry, I think you missed the point I was trying to make, which was:

Do not hide the shelf from the inspector. Instead, go to the inspector man-to-man and discuss the issue. Take the code book, take the dictionary, and be prepared. Explain the situation and if the EI doesn't agree, then follow through with the appeals process. This is not treating the insPeCtoR as if he was God. This is treating him like a peer who deserves to be given credit for some common sense. Better to do that than to remove the shelf and hide it (which the EI already knows was there) and create animosity and antagonsim in the future. There was no "cowering down" or placing the EI on a pedestal. The EI is only human, and when you deceive a typical human, paybacks can be hell, precisely because the inspector is not a god.

So, Larry, I am assuming by your commentary that you would have no problem hiding the shelf from the inspector and then put it back when he is gone?
 
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