Is this a kitchen counter?

[M. D.]

But if the HO wants to do something that involves my being less then truthful to the inspector I would have no part of it.

I agree and have felt that pressure ,..not fun.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Problem here is we have not seen this job.Usually i dont take the inspectors side,but here if he has no print saying what room this is in then its his call.Removing the shelf fixes nothing.You will win this battle but loose the EI trust in your work for ever.I would call the chief and try to solve it with him.

 

[M. D.]

Problem here is we have not seen this job.Usually i dont take the inspectors side,but here if he has no print saying what room this is in then its his call..

Not in Massachusetts,..The H.O. decides

 

[joebell]

MD

I have read your earlier post where you added the state building code section, but it seems to me that if there was a set of engineered (stamped) drawings for the job wouldn't the Architect define the space. Wouldn't the architect be the HO agent?

Joe

 

[M. D.]

MD

I have read your earlier post where you added the state building code section, but it seems to me that if there was a set of engineered (stamped) drawings for the job wouldn't the Architect define the space. Wouldn't the architect be the HO agent?

Joe

If the plans call this space a kitchen then that is what it is ,......... If the plans included this space as kitchen space originally ,.but as has been indicated,. several changes have been made and there is now a question as to whether or not this once defined kitchen space is still an area of kitchen,... it is not up to the inspector to define it ,..
It remains the obligation of the owner or their agent acting on their behalf ,...through whatever process is appropriate,.. to do so ,....which I guess could be the inspector of wires ,..but not too likely.

The home owner added a granite shelf to what is being called a foyer which is next to the new kitchen I wired. ......

The inspector is requiring a counter top recept because he claims it's a kitchen counter.
....
. I am hoping to convince the inspector that it is not a counter and or it is not in the kitchen.

...... on your way to the kitchen you pass the shelf on your left, ...... As you pass the end of the shelf you enter the kitchen.

Any ideas on how to change the inspectors mind?

Mike

Given Mike's description and the fact that he nor the H.O. consider this area as kitchen space ,.I would assist the H.O. any way I could ,..up to and including,... telling them if the shelf goes ,. for however long,.. so too the receptacle the inspector is thinking is required,.. I think to do otherwise, if I believed that this space was not in the kitchen and that a shelf is not a counter top ,..is unethical as my obligation is to serve to the best of my ability the H.O. and not the inspector of wires.

 

[benaround]

IMO, Removing the 'shelf' is the worst option you could take. If you feel

100% sure that you are right, then stand up like the man you are and with

all the ammo this Forum has provided, politley and professionally present it

to the EI. If he can't prove his position but is to stubborn to change his

view, go to his boss.

 

[mkgrady]

IMO, Removing the 'shelf' is the worst option you could take. If you feel

100% sure that you are right, then stand up like the man you are and with

all the ammo this Forum has provided, politley and professionally present it

to the EI. If he can't prove his position but is to stubborn to change his

view, go to his boss.

That's my plan

 

[M. D.]

IMO, Removing the 'shelf' is the worst option you could take. If you feel

100% sure that you are right, then stand up like the man you are and with

all the ammo this Forum has provided, politely and professionally present it

to the EI. If he can't prove his position but is to stubborn to change his

view, go to his boss.

Not sure who you are responding to or even if it is anyone in particular,.. but there is absolutely nothing wrong with an electrician providing the customer with the reason why the inspector thinks this receptacle is required,.. If after discussing all the information and options and how much time ,..money and effort each may cost ,.. the H.O. decides to have the shelf removed ,.instead of fighting city hall?? so be it ,..I would not judge them to be " less manly" ,.whatever that means.

As far as discussing things with inspectors ,..I have not always had good results ,..no matter how polite and professional I have been.. I hope you have had nothing but success in this regard..

 

[M. D.]

That's my plan

I hope you will consider the reaction ,.. I don't know you or your inspector or if you will work in his area often ,.. but most folks don't care for it when you go over their head.. good luck and I hope you get compensated for the battle you are about to wage:smile:

 

[crossman]

Mike, whatever happens, please keep us posted about what happens!

Considering that the inspector has already seen the shelf, it is best not to remove it. Go with the dictionary... or several!

 

[M. D.]

Mike, whatever happens, please keep us posted about what happens!

Considering that the inspector has already seen the shelf, it is best not to remove it......

Why ?? are we not free to decide if we do or do not want,.. a shelf in our homes??? and for that matter when or why we want it removed????

This is just ,....total bovine excrement!!

 

[M. D.]

I hope they opt. for removal ,.and when Mr.

"ah I think dat dis here hallaway is a kitchen derrr uh but ,..I'll let,... uh ,...derr... you get away with,.. err uh ,daah one receptacle ",...shows up,.. I would tell him

"the shelf is gone .. no ,..no I did not ask why ,...I guess they really hate receptacles mounted above shelves, they are patching the wall right now,...where the shelf brackets were,...now would you be so kind as to sign the card,... Oh thank you sir,.. you have a wonderful day ,.. drive safe now ,... sleep tight ,..don't let the bed bugs bite.."


And I would not loose one wink of sleep if the shelf in the hall went up 2 minuets later..

Not sure why,... but this has crawled under my nails

 

[LarryFine]

I hope you will consider the reaction ,.. I don't know you or your inspector or if you will work in his area often ,.. but most folks don't care for it when you go over their head..

If I'm sure I'm right, I have no qualms about climbing the food chain. I'm not there to stroke his ego. Let's not forget that it takes two to have a disagreement.

If I ever suspected that an inspector inspected a job over-critically because I was proven right in a previous dispute, I would start climbing the food chain again.

 

[M. D.]

Larry how much time / money / effort was involved in resolving your latest disagreement ,..be honest now,...
(edit to add)
and having to climb the food chain because you suspect there might be pay back is sort of what I'm talking about....It costs money

 

[LarryFine]

Larry how much time / money / effort was involved in resolving your latest disagreement ,..be honest now,...

Only a phone call to get his boss out the next day, and I was still on the job anyway, so maybe 20 minutes or so. Honestly.

and having to climb the food chain because you suspect there might be pay back is sort of what I'm talking about....It costs money

So does having to add a receptacle after construction that (a) the NEC does not require, (b) the customer does not want, and (c) I wouldn't want to install because I love being right.

Plus, (d) simply relenting sets a bad precedent (and it could be bigger and cost more next time), (e) an inspector who is never challenged thinks he's infallible, and (f) I love being right.

 

[benaround]

Larry how much time / money / effort was involved in resolving your latest disagreement ,..be honest now,...
(edit to add)
and having to climb the food chain because you suspect there might be pay back is sort of what I'm talking about....It costs money

MD, This is not about who's opinion is right, it's about having an opinion and

posting it.

 

[iwire]

Why ?? are we not free to decide if we do or do not want,.. a shelf in our homes??? and for that matter when or why we want it removed????

Of course a HO is free to decide if they want shelf or not, but if they are removing it just to get by the inspection that is underhanded IMO.

This is just ,....total bovine excrement!!

That is your opinion but it is not a fact and you might want to tone it down a notch.

 

[M. D.]

Only a phone call to get his boss out the next day, and I was still on the job anyway, so maybe 20 minutes or so. Honestly.

So does having to add a receptacle after construction that (a) the NEC does not require, (b) the customer does not want, and (c) I wouldn't want to install because I love being right.

Plus, (d) simply relenting sets a bad precedent (and it could be bigger and cost more next time), (e) an inspector who is never challenged thinks he's infallible, and (f) I love being right.

Well one call and twenty minuets ,..Virginia is doing something right..

:smile: In Massachusetts it will be twenty calls at 20 minuets each ... If I were to guess ,..I say his boss is located in Boston..and is not big on road trips...

Bob it is all opinion:wink: and I thought I found a way to express my furstration without offense.....:smile:

 

[dnem]

Show him this , straight from the 7th edition of the State Building Code

Question 7: 780 CMR 3603.16.13 requires that an existing one- or two-family dwelling be provided with
a household fire warning system for new construction when one or more sleeping rooms are
added or created in the existing dwelling. What constitutes a bedroom under this Section?


Answer 7: The State Board of Building Regulations and Standards (BBRS), as the Agency
promulgating the Massachusetts State Building Code, is the ?AUTHORITY HAVING
JURISDICTION? (AHJ) regarding the interpretation of regulations of the State Building
Code and has determined that it is the responsibility of the building owner or the agent of the
building owner to identify any new or newly created bedrooms or other space USES. If
submitted plans and/or narratives that describe the work intended identify such new additions
or newly created spaces as other than bedrooms then 780 CMR 3603.16.13 does not apply
(note that it is the ?REGULATED COMMUNITY? and not the ?REGULATOR? who
identifies, on plans and/or narratives submitted as part of the building permit application to
the Building Department, if a bedroom is being added or created).

That might work in Massachusetts for a bedroom but if you have a room with a sink, cooking, and a counter you can't designate it as the family room. . And if you did, then what you would have is a kitchen area within your family room that area would have to follow kitchen requirements.

What I am saying is ,..there are plans,... find out what they indicate the space as ,..If there is no detail for this space it is the H.O. that decides what to call it ,..not the inspector. They obviously do not view it as a kitchen space. A dwelling requires a "kitchen" ,..but how big it is and what shape it takes,. is up to the H.O. to a large degree.

I had a sister that once rented a two room apt. there were several spaces ,. kitcken , living ,and sleeping spaces , no interior walls , no doors ,.except for the bathroom and entrance , was it all a kitchen ,...was it all a sleeping area ???

I wonder how this inspector would like it wired??

"all a sleeping area" doesn't work. . A dwelling unit has cooking and sanitation.

If you have a sink, cooking, and a counter then you need to define the limits of the kitchen that you do have even tho you might say you don't have one. . If you don't have a sink and cooking, then the state building code will require you to add it. . And if there's a sink with a toilet, tub, or shower then you need to define the limits of the bathroom that you do have even tho you might say you don't have one. . If you don't have a sink and toilet, then the state building code will require you to add it.

I don't see anything that says a counter in a kitchen that is not intended for food prep is not a 'kitchen counter'

If it is a counter top and it's in the kitchen it is a kitchen counter top regardless of it's intended purpose.

The problem in my mind is defining where a kitchen ends and 'other' begins with open home designs.

"The problem in my mind is defining where a kitchen ends and 'other' begins with open home designs."
Exactly !

"I don't see anything that says a counter in a kitchen that is not intended for food prep is not a 'kitchen counter'"
If it's not intended for food prep, then how do you know that it's "in" the kitchen ? . If it's not intended for food prep then you have the option of defining if it's "in" the kitchen.

"If it is a counter top and it's in the kitchen it is a kitchen counter top regardless of it's intended purpose."
"and it's in the kitchen", how do you know if it is ? . I have yet to come across a homeowner that tells me that their built-in desk counter, that's lower than the other counters, is "in" the kitchen. . Food prep is not its function and so the border between the "desk" portion and "kitchen" portion might snake around the open home design area.

I see no reason to challenge their designation of a lower counter as "desk". . But I'm still am not saying anything about the OPs situation because I haven't seen a sketch.

Is it located that it could be reasonably used for food prep ?

Let's say you have a normal height counter between the cooktop and the sink. . The homeowner says it's not "in" the kitchen. . I would have a problem with that because it could be reasonably used for food prep. . I would challenge that designation.

Commercial buildings are built to the design requirements of the current occupant. . But the 210.52 NEC requirements for Residential buildings highlight the idea that the dwelling is intended to be built to a reasonable minimum without the need to remodel for current and future owners. . Example: If the homeowner hated cooking and intended to eat out for every meal, state building code would not support any attempt to build the house without cooking facilities.

I would tend to defer to the homeowners designation but not necessarily in every case.

 

[mivey]

I pretty much agree there, what the HO does before or after I am there is really none of my business. But if the HO wants to do something that involves my being less then truthful to the inspector I would have no part of it.

You have no obligation to be less than truthful, and I don't think you should. There is a difference in breaking rules and working around the rules. The homeowner did not want a receptacle there, and you told them that the shelf would require one, so they decided they did not like the looks of a shelf with a receptacle, and decided to have to shelf removed.

Of course the best option is to get the inspector's mind right. What I am discussing is someone who does not have their mind right, and I mean RIGHT (I can just hear Strother Martin now :smile: ).

If option "A" requires you to abide by a certain rule that you can avoid by using option "B", then you might decide to go with option "B" (assumes both are safe, legal options).

What rule is being broken when a homeowner installs a shelf on a wall in the foyer without calling in an electrician? If there is one, I think we have millions of lawbreakers in the US. Please cite me a code section and I may re-think my position on this particular install.

I have heard it over and over on this forum that what the customer does later is not my problem. How many of you have empowered the homeowner with an install that you knew would change later?

I'm almost 100% positive that no one that regularly posts here would have knowingly empowered a dangerous potential change. I'm also sure that many have "empowered" a situation that was very likely, if not almost certain, to change.

How many of you recommended that the customer hurry to get their permits under the 2005 NEC so they could avoid the 2008 NEC? Were you violating the law or working around the law? Do you feel ethically dirty for having done so?

If you tell me you have never had to work around an irrational person by finding another way to skin a cat, I will tell you that you need to get out more.

If you tell me you have never found another means to get something done, and get around one rule without breaking the other rules, then I will out-right call you confused, or less than honest.