Is this a kitchen counter?

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joebell said:
Mike

It sounds to me that you need to convince the inspector that the "shelf" is in the foyer and not the kitchen. I can not find any depth requirements in 210-52 (C) that would exclude a receptacle being installed. Is the 18" dimension at the center tapering to the ends or the other way around?

Joe
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Yup, the 18" is in the center.

Regarding your post on location, it is south shore area
 
I think the home owner needs to get in touch with the Architect and have him define the space in writing for the EI otherwise they are going to end up with a GFCI receptacle at there shelf.

It is my guess that the inspector is requiring only one receptacle in the center of this shelf because in his opinion there is less than 24" of usable space on either side of center line.

Good Luck

Joe
 
joebell said:
It is my guess that the inspector is requiring only one receptacle in the center of this shelf because in his opinion there is less than 24" of usable space on either side of center line.
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Your guess might be right. But if so, the Inspector is still wrong. Nothing in 210.52(C) draws a line between usable counter space and unusable counter space. Question 1: Is it in the kitchen? Question 2: Is it a wall counter space? Question 3: Is is wider than 12 inches? If you get "yes" all three times, then the 24 inch rule comes into play. So the Inspector would not have the option of requiring only one receptacle in the middle.
 
charlie b said:

Your guess might be right. But if so, the Inspector is still wrong. Nothing in 210.52(C) draws a line between usable counter space and unusable counter space. Question 1: Is it in the kitchen? Question 2: Is it a wall counter space? Question 3: Is is wider than 12 inches? If you get "yes" all three times, then the 24 inch rule comes into play. So the Inspector would not have the option of requiring only one receptacle in the middle.
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Charlie,

I think question #1 is the krux of the matter, if it can be defined to be out of the kitchen then problem solved.

Question #2 if it is deemed to be in the kitchen then it is a wall counter space


Question # 3 You have me there (2 GFCI recept.) maybe there should be a proposal for a min. depth requirement.


Joe
 
I think there has to be a distinction between a shelf and a countertop. What if I build shelves for cookbooks and knick-knacks (my wife's, not mine), above a countertop. Could an EI say that each shelf is a countertop and has to have receptacles above them?
 
Okay, I was thinking that a countertop would be installed on top of kitchen cabinets. So, I looked it up in Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, and behold, that is what it says! "the flat working surface on top of waist-level kitchen cabinets."

Edit to add: Here is a quote from the OP:

The home owner added a granite shelf to what is being called a foyer which is next to the new kitchen I wired. The shelf is 70" long and is a big arc that is 18" deep at its widest point. The shelf surface is 39" high and sits on brackets supported from the wall.

So, a shelf sitting on brackets is not a countertop, even if it is granite that matches what is in the kitchen .
 
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crossman said:
So, a shelf sitting on brackets is not a countertop, even if it is granite that matches what is in the kitchen .
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Since when did the NEC care about Webster's definitions? :grin:
 
crossman said:
Okay, I was thinking that a countertop would be installed on top of kitchen cabinets. So, I looked it up in Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, and behold, that is what it says! "the flat working surface on top of waist-level kitchen cabinets.
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I understand and agree that this is merely a shelf, But (there always seems to be a but) with that definition of a countertop would receptacles be required on an Island in a kitchen that had no cabinetry associated with it. It simply was framed out and a slab of granite laid across it? Just food for thought.

I think the inspector is seeing 18" of granite sticking out from the wall and is thinking this should be considered counter space.

Joe
 
Sounds like it is in fact a shelf and not a countertop but I personally would not mind a receptacle at shelf height. Come home, plug in my cell phone and leave it on the shelf.

One way to post a sketch would be to scan the sketch as a .JPEG and then upload it to www.photobucket.com. It is a free photo sharing web site. If you have a teenager, chances are he or she already has an account. You can then post a link to the file.

Another, and easier, way is to take a picture of the actual shelf as it relates to the kitchen. V-Bulleting allows you to post pictures right in your reply. You would have to post the pics on the site mentioned above and then you can post a link to the pic. In the top of the dialog box where you type your replies, there is a rectangle with some mountains in it. That allows you to post pics.
 
We must start with the prints and see what this area was called.If unmarked then the inspector has the call.Plenty of ways around this but its cheating..Resubmit plans with --------------- to cut off kitchen and call other area what it is.If its not part of kitchen then inspector can not ask for SA receptacle.Argue this one and he will think twice about tagging your next job.He has a fighter .
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Since when did the NEC care about Webster's definitions? :grin:
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Well heck, the definitions of the english words have to come from somewhere. I figure the CMPs would use the standard dictionary definition of the english words unless otherwise defined in the code.... cuz if they don't, then the entire codebook immediately becomes meaningless. For example, where they use the word "temperature", perhaps they actually mean "pressure"?

:grin:
 
joebell said:
I understand and agree that this is merely a shelf, But (there always seems to be a but) with that definition of a countertop would receptacles be required on an Island in a kitchen that had no cabinetry associated with it. It simply was framed out and a slab of granite laid across it? Just food for thought.
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In my estimation, and going with webster, what you described sounds more like a table rather than a countertop. If I took some 1.25 inch steel tubing and welded it into a table frame, bolted it to the floor in the middle of the kitchen, and threw a hunk of plywood over the top, does that mean it needs receptacles? If I bolted a drafting table to the floor in the middle of the kitchen, would that need receptacles? Heck, the dining room table in the corner of the kitchen may be a countertop even though it isn't bolted down? Why or why not? Where do we draw the line?

Good questions, and definitely open to debate.:smile:
 
Show him this , straight from the 7th edition of the State Building Code


Question 7: 780 CMR 3603.16.13 requires that an existing one- or two-family dwelling be provided with
a household fire warning system for new construction when one or more sleeping rooms are
added or created in the existing dwelling. What constitutes a bedroom under this Section?

Answer 7: The State Board of Building Regulations and Standards (BBRS), as the Agency
promulgating the Massachusetts State Building Code, is the ?AUTHORITY HAVING
JURISDICTION? (AHJ) regarding the interpretation of regulations of the State Building
Code and has determined that it is the responsibility of the building owner or the agent of the
building owner to identify any new or newly created bedrooms or other space USES. If
submitted plans and/or narratives that describe the work intended identify such new additions
or newly created spaces as other than bedrooms then 780 CMR 3603.16.13 does not apply
(note that it is the ?REGULATED COMMUNITY? and not the ?REGULATOR? who
identifies, on plans and/or narratives submitted as part of the building permit application to
the Building Department, if a bedroom is being added or created).
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mkgrady said:
What changes when you walk into the kitchen is the ceiling height. It's about 18" higher
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That sounds like a delineation, or boundary, to me. The shelf is not in the kitchen, and that's the stand I would firmly take.

Everyone has a supervisor. It sounds like this inspector's boss needs a call. I've done that twice, and "won" both times.
 
Lots of good ideas here, Thanks everybody.

I think I will fight this for my customer's benifit, and possibly mine, in that I want to stand my ground.
 
crossman said:
In my estimation, and going with webster, what you described sounds more like a table rather than a countertop. If I took some 1.25 inch steel tubing and welded it into a table frame, bolted it to the floor in the middle of the kitchen, and threw a hunk of plywood over the top, does that mean it needs receptacles? If I bolted a drafting table to the floor in the middle of the kitchen, would that need receptacles? Heck, the dining room table in the corner of the kitchen may be a countertop even though it isn't bolted down? Why or why not? Where do we draw the line?

Good questions, and definitely open to debate.:smile:
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Exactly where does the line get drawn:)

Joe
 
LarryFine said:
Everyone has a supervisor. It sounds like this inspector's boss needs a call. I've done that twice, and "won" both times.
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lol......but we are not talking Box Fill here Larry....lol.....yeah I heard about it...lol
 
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