Is this a Luminaire?

[cschmid]

And why is this an issue??? I guess I do have a question then..This is a luminaire and if there is no switch on the circuit then does the CB need to be switch rated? I guess this is something to contemplate..

There are, and have been, a number of night lights that are built on device yokes that can be mounted in a standard single gang wall case.

Is this a Luminaire?

Below is the P&S hallway light catalog # TMHWLCC , an LED light source providing 3 lumens from a 120V supply. It is designed to be covered by a generic decora style device coverplate.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Is a pilot light on a starter a luminaire?
An LED part of a GFCI recept?
Anything that produces any perceptible amount of light?

yes that gfi is a light and if outside of front door qualifies as the light fixture.

 

[480sparky]

And why is this an issue??? I guess I do have a question then..This is a luminaire and if there is no switch on the circuit then does the CB need to be switch rated? I guess this is something to contemplate..

Where is it written a luminaire must be shut off?

 

[al hildenbrand]

does the CB need to be switch rated?

Last time I checked, all commodity single pole 15 and 20 Amp circuit breakers from the big four are listed as SWD for switching duty.

 

[al hildenbrand]

What difference does it make where in a catalog it was listed?

One of the counter arguments to my opinion that an Outlet occurs in a switch used as a Controller had to do with Device being in the inclusive first part of the Premises Wiring (System) definition. The counter argument was a Device is part of the Premises Wiring (System) and therefore can't have an outlet in it.

The yoke mounted LED in my OP of this thread is made as a Device, yet it is a Luminaire (at least my our poll), which, as a Luminaire is in the exclusionary last sentence of the definition of Premises Wiring (System) making an Outlet possible before the Device, and the entire Device is not part of the Premises Wiring (System).

 

[pfalcon]

Smoke detectors didn't become "devices" just because they became hardwired.
Luminaires don't become "devices" just because they are hardwired.

Tis a luminaire.

I hate that definition of device. Cripples the language with so narrow a definition.

Luminaire does not require a switch. Breaker does not have to be switch rated. Some of these LED thingies (can't use device) outlast your hardwired appliances.

(Sorry about your fall down the stairs but we turned the emergency lighting off at the switch to save energy. We're green :grin

 

[al hildenbrand]

Smoke detectors didn't become "devices" just because they became hardwired.

I don't think there is any ambiguity with smokes. They're straight out Utilization Equipment. So it's easy to see that the Outlet is between the smoke leads and the branch circuit conductors they are wirenuted to (or, in some cases, the Outlet is between the branch circuit conductors and the smoke stab-in contact).

Luminaires don't become "devices" just because they are hardwired.

That's not what I'm trying to illustrate. Almost all Luminaires are clearly only Luminaires, which, again, clearly makes them Utilization Equipment.

But, this yoke mounted LED assembly is made by a Device manufacturer, and is put in their catalog with other Devices (switches, receptacle, combination devices, and this LED hallway light). I haven't had a physical unit to examine for it's UL designation, yet, and am curious how it is listed.

This is a luminaire.

I agree. I think this one specific class of assemblies shows that the use dominates over a name with respect to how it lands in the Premises Wiring (System) definition.

 

[roger]

But, this yoke mounted LED assembly is made by a Device manufacturer, and is put in their catalog with other Devices (switches, receptacle, combination devices, and this LED hallway light). I haven't had a physical unit to examine for it's UL designation, yet, and am curious how it is listed.I agree. I think this one specific class of assemblies shows that the use dominates over a name with respect to how it lands in the Premises Wiring (System) definition.

Al, the manufacturer calls it a "DECORATOR COMBO FULL HALL WAY LIGHT", that is from the P&S website, so even though it is made by a device manufacturer and is mounted on a device looking yoke, it is a light/luminaire by their own admission.

You can see it here

Roger

 

[al hildenbrand]

Al, the manufacturer calls it a "DECORATOR COMBO FULL HALL WAY LIGHT", that is from the P&S website, so even though it is made by a device manufacturer and is mounted on a device looking yoke, it is a light/luminaire by their own admission.

You can see it here

Roger

Yah, I spent some time trying to snoop out more meaningful information there, as well. I note, as a sidebar, that the "new LeGrand" website seems to be missing a lot of old P&S catalog info & PDF resource.

And, right now, that is the one hardcopy part of the P&S cataloge that I don't have, here, behind my desk.

I was pretty disappointed with what I found at LeGrand. It seems sanitized, but really, it's probably just not all there yet. I found some older cached files in the Google horde of searches, . . . but I'm curious about the UL designation on the device itself.

A Google cached "quickview" document from P&S is at this link. The actual Google supplied link to the P&S source URL is this link , but it is grabbed and redirected to the "New LeGrand" site. The Lighting Output diagram seems to be currently unavailable at LeGrand.

And I can't find a more common Installation or Specifcation PDF on this.

 

[LarryFine]

I still stand by my previous response:

Is this a Luminaire?

Absolutely.

It just happens to be one that mounts in a box like a device does, rendering that box a lighting outlet.

The box could have originally been a receptacle outlet (hopefully, not a required one), or a switch box.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I still stand by my previous response:

That's your story & you're sticking to it!

 

[drbond24]

You need to trim your thumbnail.

 

[LarryFine]

That's your story & you're sticking to it!

Absoloopy!

 

[pfalcon]

I don't think there is any ambiguity with smokes. They're straight out Utilization Equipment. So it's easy to see that the Outlet is between the smoke leads and the branch circuit conductors they are wirenuted to (or, in some cases, the Outlet is between the branch circuit conductors and the smoke stab-in contact).That's not what I'm trying to illustrate. Almost all Luminaires are clearly only Luminaires, which, again, clearly makes them Utilization Equipment.

But, this yoke mounted LED assembly is made by a Device manufacturer, and is put in their catalog with other Devices (switches, receptacle, combination devices, and this LED hallway light). I haven't had a physical unit to examine for it's UL designation, yet, and am curious how it is listed.I agree. I think this one specific class of assemblies shows that the use dominates over a name with respect to how it lands in the Premises Wiring (System) definition.

So if, a yoke mounted smoke assembly is made by a Device manufacturer, and is put in their catalog with other Devices (switches, receptacle, combination devices, and this LED hallway light), then it becomes ambiguous?

I believe the use must always dominate over a name.

 

[480sparky]

So if, a yoke mounted smoke assembly is made by a Device manufacturer, and is put in their catalog with other Devices (switches, receptacle, combination devices, and this LED hallway light), then it becomes ambiguous?

I believe the use must always dominate over a name.

It makes no difference where in a catalog something is placed. Catalogs are not enforceable instruments. You could take it and put it in a Cabella's catalog and that still does not make it a hunting accessory. Put it in a Kohls' Sunday ad and it's not womens clothing. If I put it in my desk drawer it does not mean it is a writing instrument.

 

[LarryFine]

Put it in a Kohls' Sunday ad and it's not womens clothing.

Kohl's doesn't sell men's clothing? Uh-oh! :roll:

 

[al hildenbrand]

So if, a yoke mounted smoke assembly is made by a Device manufacturer, and is put in their catalog with other Devices (switches, receptacle, combination devices, and this LED hallway light), then it becomes ambiguous?

I believe the use must always dominate over a name.

I do too.

That's why the Controller use of a snap switch dominates over the switch's "Device-ness", in my opinion, allowing the last sentence of the definition of Premises Wiring (System) to exclude the internal current path of the switch from the Premises Wiring (System).

The point between the Premises Wiring (System) present at a snap switch and the non-PWS internal wiring of the snap switch has current passing it that is only taken by the Utilization Equipment the snap switch Controls. That point, between the internal and external snap switch, is, IMO, an Outlet.

 

[al hildenbrand]

It makes no difference where in a catalog something is placed. Catalogs are not enforceable instruments.

I wonder about that. We're supposed to, by the NEC, pay attention to any instructions that are from the manufacturer.

I'm still learning about this one particular instance of a yoke mounted LED light source. I took the UL File Number from the photo:

And that leads to the White Book classification IEZX. Note that inspite of this being an LED light source, for some reason, this model, TMHWL is categorized as incandescant. The box that this individual nightlight came in has only 120V printed on it and no other load information. The luminaire yoke, the plastic luminaire body and the one label (see photo above) have absolutely no electrical info other than "20A per circuit. 15A each. 120VAC" Whatever that means. The accompanying Installation Instructions has no electrical characteristics printed, other than saying the TMHWL has no split circuit tab.


There is no indication of current draw or volt amps or watts.

IEZX
GENERAL​

This category covers luminaires intended for installation in recessed cavities in walls, ceilings and similar locations in accordance with Article 410, Parts XI and XII of ANSI/NFPA 70, "National Electrical Code" (NEC).

PRODUCT MARKINGS​

All luminaires bear a model, catalog or series number (or similar designation) or the words "Recessed Incandescent,""Recessed Incandescent Type IC,""Rough-In Section for Recessed Incandescent,""Rough-In Section for Recessed Incandescent Type IC" or "Finishing Section for Recessed Fixture" adjacent to the Listing Mark.

TYPES OF RECESSED LUMINAIRES​

TYPE NON-IC LUMINAIRE — . . . .
For proper heat dissipation, Type Non-IC luminaires are intended to be installed in a cavity as follows: If not marked with any spacing information, the luminaire is intended to be installed not closer than 1/2 in. from any surface forming the cavity behind the recessed portion of the luminaire and not closer than 1 in. from adjacent luminaires.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Al, I've always agreed that a switch is an outlet, but I sure do admire the way you go about trying to prove it.:grin:

 

[al hildenbrand]

I sure do admire the way you go about trying to prove it.:grin:

Thanks John.