Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

[roger]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

Steve, draw out the buss duct, the Grounded Conductor is the same at both ends as far as the continuity to the metalic enclosure, so bonding it at both ends doesn't change anything. There would be no need, reason, or advantage to seperate the Grounded and Grounding counductors anywhere within this service equipment.

Let's all forget about the code for a minute.

BTW, Sam you would be better off looking at 250.142 as far as a code reason.

Roger

 

[physis]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

I looked over Kevin's post and only saw correct terminolgy. I use "street lingo" too but there are different varieties and that leads to a need for clarification sometimes. NEC terms are almost always understood here.

Roger, minute?

Based on how I think you would do this the only reason it wouldn't be about half is that the conduit resistance would likely be higher. Potentially causing heating.

And I was looking for that one too (250.142, 250's not my best article).

 

[milwaukeesteve]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

250.142 does not address this.

It talks about using a grounded conductor (which is an insulated current carrying conductor) as your equipment ground. in certain circumstances.
What you are talking about is the opposite. Using the Grounding path (which is the bussduct cabinet or the metal raceway) as a current carrying conductor.

250.142 does not apply.

 

[physis]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

I still think it might apply but you're right, I'm looking for the opposite.

 

[milwaukeesteve]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

As far as buss ducts...
If you run a 3phase 480V system, you do not have a neutral. If you run a 3phase 480/277V system, then you have a neutral. In each case you would install the appropriate buss duct (like pipe and wire installations). You would need a 3 buss bussduct for the first and a 4buss bussduct for the second. In the case of the second, the neutral buss is not bonded to the cabinet. Just like you run that neutral conductor through the raceway. It is the same principle, just different materials. But different materials doesn't mean changing the way we wire.

 

[nsmaby]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

Originally posted by georgestolz:
I think it's pretty funny nobody seems to care about the DIY factor in this. :roll:

DIY fill your lunch pail .....

 

[roger]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

Steve,

Originally posted by milwaukeesteve:
In the case of the second, the neutral buss is not bonded to the cabinet. Just like you run that neutral conductor through the raceway. It is the same principle, just different materials. But different materials doesn't mean changing the way we wire.

you're not reading my posts closely enough, in my scenario the Buss Duct is "Service Equipment", therefor the Grounded conductor would be bonded to the enclosure.

I guess besides Sam, Iwire, and a couple others, no one else in this thread can (or are willing to) think outside the NEC, and what they are used to as far as installation norms.

Think about the reasons for the requirements, not that there are requirements.

Roger

[ April 27, 2005, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

Originally posted by nsmaby:
DIY fill your lunch pail .....

I help, and you threaten my lunchbox?

Roger, thanks for expanding my mind.

I'm going to have to drink heavily to purge this experience from memory.

[ April 27, 2005, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[physis]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

I ignored it because the discussion is interesting anda he'sa gonna do it a anyway.

 

[nsmaby]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

Originally posted by physis:
I ignored it because the discussion is interesting and he's gonna do it a anyway. . You need to lighten up a bit George; I only intended to say that the fact that there are bozo DIYs like myself creates business for real "code abiding" electricians like yourself, as you get to come in and make big money cleaning up the messes that we create. I only hope to avoid creating the mess in the first place. At least I am attempting to be a more responsible DIY by talking to the experts.

I also appreciate the discussions that go beyond the strict interpretation of the code. Being an Mechanical/Electrical Engineer by training and having worked as a journeyman carpenter, I am always interested in the "why's" behind the code, not just the "what's" of the code.

For instance "Why is it safer to keep ground and neutral separate in a sub-panel?", I.e. what and where are the dangerous current paths and voltage differences that develop. And, how do these potentially dangerous currents and voltages relate to the length of the conduit and wire between the main panel and the sub panel. Presumably as the length of the conduit and wire approaches zero, we approach a single service box, which is the point Roger was attempting to make, I think.

Anyway, I am truly grateful for the discussion, gentlemen and gentleladies. Your bb is an asset to the web.

Niels

 

[physis]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

nsmaby,

Actually George isn't out of line.

Please review this page.

 

[nsmaby]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

Originally posted by physis:
nsmaby,

Actually George isn't out of line.

Please review this page.

Sorry, somehow I missed that page during the signup process (which, by the way did produce a "page not found error" partway through my signup).

As an engineer, I have always wondered when I get to drive the train. I guess not yet.

Still, I thank you all for a lively discussion.

In addition, I am encouraged by the fact that this type of detailed discussion occurs amongst electrical types.

If I need to hire an electrician in the Bay Area (who knows maybe after my toaster chassis begins arcing ), I'll give you or roger a call.

my apologies,

Niels

 

[physis]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

You don't need to apologize but these guys are pretty serious about do it yourself topics. Typically this thread would have been closed early on. We are all asked to stay within the rules.

With that out of the way, welcome to the forum.

 

[physis]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

And Niels, I know you just spell checked it, but you shouldn't alter quotes.

Ok, I'm done picking on you.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

I don't know about that. In this case, I'd leave your typo's, because I think they're there for artistic flair. I'll correct a typo, if I believe it distracts from the intent of the quote I'm using. Sometimes it would look like I'm quoting a typo to embarrass a bad speller.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

For sure, Niels, welcome to the forum.

If I had some sort of unholy wrath for your bold defiance of the guidelines, I'd have

Note--pay attention to the smiley faces! If we're smiling, we're not mad! Or angry?

 

[physis]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

By Geaorge:

I don't know about that. You can alter my posts all you want to.

 

[nsmaby]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

Note--pay attention to the smiley faces! If we're smiling, we're not mad! Or angry? . So you see it's genetic, I can't help it.

I will continue to absorb what I can. And please, keep explaining the why's of the code.

Thanks for the welcome. No righteousness was intended in removing stray key strokes from a quote, sorry. What if I put a smiley face after my quote change? kidding!

Niels

 

[physis]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

You can get smileys from a lot of places. Go to this place and if you have any trouble making it work someone 'll help you out. You can also right click an object and get it's "address" from "properties".

 

[petersonra]

Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?

Originally posted by infinity:
So the consensus is that this is a subpanel?

Does the code even define the term "subpanel"?