Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?
- Thread starter nsmaby
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?
Thanks Bob for bringing us back to where we started.
milwaukeesteve
Senior Member
- Location
- Milwaukee, WI
Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?
Why do I feel like a dog chasing its tail?
[ April 29, 2005, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: milwaukeesteve ]
Why do I feel like a dog chasing its tail?
[ April 29, 2005, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: milwaukeesteve ]
Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?
Here is the punch line for this discussion:
The inspector came out and said: "you need to bond the neutral bar to the sub-panel with a bonding jumper". When I pointed out that it was a "sub-panel" to the main breaker panel, he said "well, I don't really consider this a sub-panel, I consider it your service entrance" :roll: .
Apparently having the two panels back to back (one on the inside and one on the outside), he considers them one panel! Probably would get a different response from a different inspector!
Anyway - thanks again for all of your help!
Niels
Here is the punch line for this discussion:
The inspector came out and said: "you need to bond the neutral bar to the sub-panel with a bonding jumper". When I pointed out that it was a "sub-panel" to the main breaker panel, he said "well, I don't really consider this a sub-panel, I consider it your service entrance" :roll: .
Apparently having the two panels back to back (one on the inside and one on the outside), he considers them one panel! Probably would get a different response from a different inspector!
Anyway - thanks again for all of your help!
Niels
stud696981
Senior Member
Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?
If you treated the panel inside the garage as a sub-panel (which I would) and had the neutral and grounds separate, there should be NO PROBLEM. The panel would be safe and function correctly. I don't see how he could violate this type of install. So if you put this panel at the other end of the house, ran three wires and bonded the neutral to the panel he would pass that too?
If you treated the panel inside the garage as a sub-panel (which I would) and had the neutral and grounds separate, there should be NO PROBLEM. The panel would be safe and function correctly. I don't see how he could violate this type of install. So if you put this panel at the other end of the house, ran three wires and bonded the neutral to the panel he would pass that too?
Kershaw Electric
New member
Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?
I think the code needs to define subpanel. I have installed two or three section panel for a good many years. They were always considered one panel. If I had a two section panel and the first section with a Main breaker, branch circuits and the second section with only branch circuits. It was considered one panel. Now I have installed a combo meter, main breaker, and eight circuit panel with Feed though lugs, and nipple through to the inside of a garage to a MLO panel. One inspector call a subpanel and the other inspector call it the same panel. Both installation are rated feed through panels, both are nipple together, both have the cans grounded together, both have the A & B phase and neutral extended with conductors to the second section. we ground all service grounds to the outside panel next to the disconnect (according to code) but when we try to connect the equipment grounds to the neutral bus. one inspector agrees and another says need a ground bus in a subpanel. It seems if it was side by side they see it as one panel and when it is one on the outside of the garage and one inside they don't look at it the same way, Even if electrically it is exactly the same.
I think the code needs to define subpanel. I have installed two or three section panel for a good many years. They were always considered one panel. If I had a two section panel and the first section with a Main breaker, branch circuits and the second section with only branch circuits. It was considered one panel. Now I have installed a combo meter, main breaker, and eight circuit panel with Feed though lugs, and nipple through to the inside of a garage to a MLO panel. One inspector call a subpanel and the other inspector call it the same panel. Both installation are rated feed through panels, both are nipple together, both have the cans grounded together, both have the A & B phase and neutral extended with conductors to the second section. we ground all service grounds to the outside panel next to the disconnect (according to code) but when we try to connect the equipment grounds to the neutral bus. one inspector agrees and another says need a ground bus in a subpanel. It seems if it was side by side they see it as one panel and when it is one on the outside of the garage and one inside they don't look at it the same way, Even if electrically it is exactly the same.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?
In my opinion those sections only allow the enclosure containing the service disconnect to be treated as a 'Main' panel (Neutral Bonded). Any panel on the load side of that main panel, nippled together or across the room must be treated as a sub panel (Floating neutral).
Take a look at 250.142(A) and 250.142(B).
In my opinion those sections only allow the enclosure containing the service disconnect to be treated as a 'Main' panel (Neutral Bonded). Any panel on the load side of that main panel, nippled together or across the room must be treated as a sub panel (Floating neutral).
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?
Any panel after the main disconnect is a sub panel.The main is your primary panel and any ones after that are subs therefore 4 wire system.
Doesn`t matter if adjacent to or back to backed any panels down stream is a sub panel,in this case the main is adjacent to and the interior being 8 ins. or 80 ft. are the same thing a SUB panel
Any panel after the main disconnect is a sub panel.The main is your primary panel and any ones after that are subs therefore 4 wire system.
Doesn`t matter if adjacent to or back to backed any panels down stream is a sub panel,in this case the main is adjacent to and the interior being 8 ins. or 80 ft. are the same thing a SUB panel
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?
There is nothing special about a sub panel. Feeding a sub panel is no different then feeding any equipment on the load side of the service disconnect.
If you had to feed an HVAC unit 240/120 you would never even consider using the neutral as the grounding means or bonding the neutral to the units enclosure.
You are right, only the panel containing the service disconnect is a special case.
Sam I agree with you.
There is nothing special about a sub panel. Feeding a sub panel is no different then feeding any equipment on the load side of the service disconnect.
If you had to feed an HVAC unit 240/120 you would never even consider using the neutral as the grounding means or bonding the neutral to the units enclosure.
You are right, only the panel containing the service disconnect is a special case.
physis
Senior Member
Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?
I agree with the inspectors who don't want more than one MBJ.
When there are more than one MBJ (or the ground is connected to the neutral at more than one point) then the EGC (or whatever the cabinets or anything else that are between the connectiions) is carring neutral current.
I agree with the inspectors who don't want more than one MBJ.
Re: Is this considered a Sub-Panel or Not?
Why all the fear of a conduit or enclosure carrying current? All installations that have a metal conduit between the meter and the main panel have a conduit that is paralleled with the neutral. Having a second main panel creates an additional enclosure and conduit that also carry current. Why is this a problem?
Why all the fear of a conduit or enclosure carrying current? All installations that have a metal conduit between the meter and the main panel have a conduit that is paralleled with the neutral. Having a second main panel creates an additional enclosure and conduit that also carry current. Why is this a problem?
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