Is this what we have to look forward to?

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George Stolz

George Stolz

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Perhaps I am a bit of a redneck, but does anyone else see the episode described in the original article a bit melodramatic?

Anyone who busts a light bulb, and then...

  • calls Home Depot for cleanup advice
  • gets directed to the Poison Control center
  • ends up talking to a toxic-waste removal expert
  • fields a bid for $2000 for the job
  • accepts it
  • then expects insurance to pick up the tab
  • is numb enough to tell another living soul about the event, much less complain about it...

...is ripe for Devine/Darwinian (pick one) removal from this plane of existence, IMO. This is pure muckraking. Somewhere in this chain of events most sane people would simply break free of this highway to nutsville, whip out the vacuum, rip out the carpet, do something besides take it in the shorts and expect a handout.

I think it probably takes about 2 muscles to complain about a problem, and 50 to fix it, and sadly, it seems these days it seems an event if someone lifts a finger to complain.

[/rant]

But maybe there is some aspect of this I am blind to. Feel free to continue. :)
 
M

mgd

Member
Location
US
chris kennedy said:
Nice link Jay. Does anyone have a link as to how mercury is used in the production of CFL's?
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When a voltage is applied, the electrodes energize the mercury vapor, causing it to emit ultraviolet (UV) energy. The phosphor coating absorbs the UV energy, causing the phosphor to fluoresce and emit visible light. Without the mercury vapor to produce UV energy, there would be no light.
i yahooed and came across this website http://www.p2pays.org/mercury/lights.asp
 
celtic

celtic

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Location
NJ
georgestolz said:
But maybe there is some aspect of this I am blind to. Feel free to continue. :)
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I think you may have missed the point ...

Where are these millions of CFL's to be disposed of?
...and what's to become of the mercury?
 
George Stolz

George Stolz

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Where do they go now? Where do all the thermometers go? Where does all the trash go? Why are CFLs especially hazardous?

I am annoyed at the use of an extreme (and preventable) case to try to establish a tenuous point. From the article (
eek.gif
"The CFL Mercury Nightmare"
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):

The DEP sent a specialist to Bridges' house to test for mercury contamination. The specialist found mercury levels in the bedroom in excess of six times the state's "safe" level for mercury contamination of 300 billionths of a gram per cubic meter.
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Six times! Holy smokes! Babies must be dying in their cribs in the fluorescent-lit delivery room!

Wait a minute - how much do you want to bet that the "six times" figure is not the bedroom as a whole, but simply where the lamp landed? I wonder, how dangerous was the carpet six inches away? A foot?

I bet if I spilled half a gallon of bleach on my carpet, the same writer would exclaim, "The chlorine level in the living room was 86 times the state's "safe" level of contamination!" Is there a geniune safety concern in my living room?

The point of this article IMO was, "CFLs are a greater liability to society than an asset. Their use should not be encouraged."

That is a falsehood, IMO.
 
Pierre C Belarge

Pierre C Belarge

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Westchester County, New York
George
Rant away... :smile:

Did you read the other article posted by Celtic?

It shows that the manufacturers are producing an incandescent that may be able to compete with the CFLs. If that is really so [who trusts manufacturers anymore?], than at least some good may come of this. Notice that the lamps are not manufactured in the US because of the mercury. I for one have children who may have their own children and would not mind seeing some other alternatives...millions/billions of lamps add up.
 
celtic

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
The article was, of course, sensational to the point of being ridiculous($2000 to change a lamp) ....BUT...the mercury is an issue.

If CFL's become the soup-de-jour, energy use is decreased and subsequently greenhouse gas emission...but then you get landfills full of mercury.
Is that a good trade?

I'm sure everyone recalls the Exxon Valdez incident....people were outraged...but how many know that we, as consumers, dump an amount equal to the Valdez incident EVERY year down our drains?
As consumers, we are allowed to dispose of a certain volume of otherwise toxic trash w/o much fanfare (correct me if I am wrong...I believe a HO can dump up to 5lbs of asbestos with their "regular" trash).

It's all about shifting the burden from the corporation to the consumer.

A better trade would be an improved lamp that would reduce both ~ greenhouse gases and toxic leftovers....and also meet consumers demands for dimming.
 
George Stolz

George Stolz

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Celtic, I appreciate your point, I'm glad you heard me out. :)

I try to look at the big picture on these sorts of issues, because the scope is beyond my comprehension. I see the shots taken at some of the new technology regardless of what industry it serves; Electrical: it's lamps, PV panels, wind generators, and so forth. There are similar discussions about cars, computers, all kinds of things.

I think sometimes people lose sight of two things - one, technology progresses, we rarely see a leap from A to D without having something less good on the way. It's like reading a muckraking article about VHS tapes cluttering up the landfill, but the writer isn't helpful enough to suggest an industrial move to DVDs, or what have you.

The second thing that gets me is this sometimes astonishing thirst for absolute comfort we have. One of the articles griped that candleabra base CFLs weren't available. (I'm pretty sure I saw some today at Home Depot, but I might have been mistaken.)

Oh, the humanity. :roll:

I'm not picking on anyone specifically here (I'm not trying to), but sometimes, it seems like the bus is coming right at us and we find it inconvenient to get out of the road. :)

It only ticks me off when the bus driver's dealing AFCI's. ;)
 
celtic

celtic

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Location
NJ
georgestolz said:
Celtic, I appreciate your point, I'm glad you heard me out. :)
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No worries, mate.
Everyone has opinions....sometimes opinions change when another opinion is injected into the fray.

georgestolz said:
It only ticks me off when the bus driver's dealing AFCI's. ;)
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Who is driving the CFL bus?
 
ceknight

ceknight

Senior Member
celtic said:
If CFL's become the soup-de-jour, energy use is decreased and subsequently greenhouse gas emission...but then you get landfills full of mercury.
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I think you'll be seeing some ramped-up recycling efforts on the CFLs in the near future. The industry was set up for dealing with commercial waste, and it just needs to filter down to the residential level. And for everyone else, there's always a landfill in Jersey. :)

Our county already has a residential CFL recycling program in place, thankfully. Since they set it up, I've been encouraging customers to replace some of their incandescents, and I pass along the recycling info along with bulbs. I do my encouraging the Johnny Appleseed way, I buy the CFLs in bulk and when I replace or install a lamp for a customer, I put a CFL in it for them. :)
 
celtic

celtic

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Location
NJ
ceknight said:
I think you'll be seeing some ramped-up recycling efforts on the CFLs in the near future. The industry was set up for dealing with commercial waste, and it just needs to filter down to the residential level.
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Good luck with that.

I am all for recycling...but the reality is ~ many(possibly most) don't.
Some towns do not a municpal garbage pick-up, it is done by a private contractor...the HO pays "per bag" for removal. How much will it be to pick up one lamp every 5 years? Will you hang onto each dead lamp until it's worth your money to pay the "per bag"?
Realisticlly...how many people dispose of ordinary batteries properly?



ceknight said:
And for everyone else, there's always a landfill in Jersey. :)
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Once we build on every square inch available.....which state will take this stuff (and God knows what else)?
 
ceknight

ceknight

Senior Member
celtic said:
I am all for recycling...but the reality is ~ many(possibly most) don't.
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Yep, I know. But look at it this way: a single coal-fired generating plant is probably going to emit more mercury than a Jersey landfill full of CFLs will, and that's ignoring the carbon output.

If the CFLs (and other energy-saving measures) lower enough energy demand to keep one more coal-fired generator from being built, or maybe to merit mothballing one or two of the older generators, we're coming out way ahead even without proper CFL recycling.

And as some have mentioned, we need a certain amount of optimism that the market will evolve and we'll get an even better trade-off soon. Anything's better than what we have, and as long as someone can make a profit off an environmentally-better bulb, we'll get it eventually.

celtic said:
Once we build on every square inch available.....which state will take this stuff (and God knows what else)?
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It's Jersey, man! Have faith, they'll just make bigger piles. :)
 
celtic

celtic

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NJ
ceknight said:
And as some have mentioned, we need a certain amount of optimism that the market will evolve and we'll get an even better trade-off soon. Anything's better than what we have, and as long as someone can make a profit off an environmentally-better bulb, we'll get it eventually.
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That's very Bill Gates of you. ;)


ceknight said:
It's Jersey, man! Have faith, they'll just make bigger piles. :)
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Until Pa. has a 3 hour day?

I'm sure there's a mad scientist out there...driving around in his water powered automobile...he has the answer, but no one is willing to accept it....me, I'm still looking for my keys.
 
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