Is this what we have to look forward to?

[jaylectricity]

This is the reason I threw that out there

This is the reason I threw that out there

I basically posted the link to get a feel for people's feelings about the CFL's. The responses have been really good. It's these kind of responses that get everyone thinking about an issue.

I myself am on the side of nature. Nature is much more powerful than us and she can do whatever she wants with us. It's all about how we treat her, but for the most part I think she can take care of herself.

It usually seems that we tend to polarize these issues. I for one feel that we can afford to give back anything nature gives us without too much of a problem. Others believe that it is our job as humans to take care of the planet. In fact, I believe we should take care of the planet...in moderation.

Unfortunately if we say, "Yeah, you can throw those things away anywhere" we tend to be more careless about it. Then a ton of them end up all over the place. Or we keep shipping stuff to Jersey. Then there is a huge concentration spot. But we keep solving problems as they arise.

If the people that believe CFL's need special treatment dispose of CFL's in a responsible manner and the people that don't believe it is a big deal dispose of CFL's in their trash can, I think the earth will survive.

 

[ceb]

My problem with the cfl issue is that it was just on our local news that NC is considering the same law, if passed ,would take effect in 2016.I am not a fan of legislating the manner I light my home. Yes, we as a country need to find and use other types of fuels that are better for the environment. However in a cynical way of thinking I see no monetary savings for the consumer. If everyone on acme power grid changed to cfl and power usage dropped by 10% the power company would find a reason to raise the rates for electricity to keep up the profit margin. This should be left to the individual to decide what they want for their home but it will probably come down to the majority having to yield to the minority.

 

[RHaggie]

It's the end of the world as we know it.

It's the end of the world as we know it.

Take a deep breath. CFL have a place. They alone will not poison the earth any more than all the D cell batteries, or the computer you are looking at right now when it is retired. I think taking a look at everything we toss into a hole in the ground is a good idea. Not because it keeps polar bears from drowning; it's just good housekeeping practice.

I agree that this seems like a manufactured story- calling Home Depot instead of the the maid service. But it does point out that solutions often bring new problems. But the problem CFL solve is lowered energy consumption. Everything needs to be taken on balance.

I like CFL, especially the way they ramp up slowly to full bright. Makes the midnight trip to the sand box a little easier on the eyes

 

[jaylectricity]

I am not a fan of legislating the manner I light my home. Yes, we as a country need to find and use other types of fuels that are better for the environment. However in a cynical way of thinking I see no monetary savings for the consumer. If everyone on acme power grid changed to cfl and power usage dropped by 10% the power company would find a reason to raise the rates for electricity to keep up the profit margin. This should be left to the individual to decide what they want for their home but it will probably come down to the majority having to yield to the minority.

I have to agree with you. If we are fighting for freedom then I want my damn freedom.



--edited because I wrote "than" instead of "then"--

 

[Rockyd]

I have to agree with you. If we are fighting for freedom then I want my damn freedom.

Hear, hear!!!

I fully support good stewardship, secuely wrapped in intelligent use of our natural resources. In the same breath, I keep a razor sharp wit to educate those who have a political agenda, that would limit freedom.

When you hear people like Albore, Sheryl Crowe, Natural Resource Defense Counsel, and a host of others, these people do not have your best interests at heart.

Sam Adams hit the nail on the head in his famous oratory -

If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands that which feed you. May your chain be set lightly upon you and posterity forget ye were our countrymen."

Click here for the full speech...Well worth the read!

 

[George Stolz]

Rocky, thanks for keeping it shorter and less angry this go-'round.

 

[cowboyjwc]

When incandesent lights are outlawed, only outlaws will have incandesent lights.

 

[ceknight]

I like CFL, especially the way they ramp up slowly to full bright. Makes the midnight trip to the sand box a little easier on the eyes

A few months ago I replaced the vanity lamps in both our bathrooms with CFL globes. Since then, I have had many midnight journeys where I had exactly that thought -- man, it's nice not to be blinded when they first come on.

The flip side is that once they are at full speed, the light is so much brighter than the four globe incandescents they replaced that I make sure I don't stay in the sandbox too long.

 

[jaylectricity]

A few months ago I replaced the vanity lamps in both our bathrooms with CFL globes. Since then, I have had many midnight journeys where I had exactly that thought -- man, it's nice not to be blinded when they first come on.

The flip side is that once they are at full speed, the light is so much brighter than the four globe incandescents they replaced that I make sure I don't stay in the sandbox too long.

That's why I relieve myself in the dark if I wake up in the middle of the night. Hell, I'll sit down to pee with no shame whatsoever if it will save me from being dragged out of my sleepy state.

 

[celtic]

Hell, I'll sit down to pee with no shame whatsoever if it will save me from being dragged out of my sleepy state.

But it sucks when you wake up....due to the fact that you fell asleep "seated" and so did your legs....and that's a wobbly walk back to the pillow

 

[George Stolz]

Well, now that we got that out of the way...

 

[dbuckley]

I fully support good stewardship, secuely wrapped in intelligent use of our natural resources.

And there you've hit the nail on the head. What is "intelligent use of natural resources", who decides, and how do you manage?

Most energy sources available to mankind in use today (hang on - I'm going all environmentally friendly!) are non-renewable, and there will come a time where they become less available to us. Using the easy example of oil, until some time in the (19!)sixties, the USA was the world's leading supplier of oil. The USA in 1970s just prior to the peak of production, supplied 20m barrels of oil every day. Today, the USA can only produce 5m a day, a number that drops year on year. To make up the shortfall (total use is about 20m per day) much oil is imported to the USA.

Jimmy Carter tried to deliver intelligent use of the oil resource, his argument being that the USA has the greatest technical minds on the planet, and they can be harnessed for economic advantage, whilst constraining the rise of price of gas and making the USA not beholdent to foreign powers that the USA doesn't really like.

So what happened? Bugger good stewardship, let the party continue. Out with the Carter, in with the Reagan.

It is difficult to make the people do the right thing, and the CFL drive, whilst people don't like it (which amendment is it that says "Congress shall pass no law banning the sale of incandescent lamps"?) it is doing something good for the USA (and China, the USA's manufacturing base), and in this case, for the rest of the world too.

I am not a fan of legislating the manner I light my home. ... This should be left to the individual to decide what they want for their home

Ok, heres another angle where you get to choose. You are mandated to reduce your home's electricity consumption 3% every year for the next ten years, so 30% off whatever you used last year in ten years. What would you change to meet that requirement?

 

[ptonsparky]

For another point of view try this: http://www.snopes.com/medical/toxins/cfl.asp

 

[ceb]

Ok, heres another angle where you get to choose. You are mandated to reduce your home's electricity consumption 3% every year for the next ten years, so 30% off whatever you used last year in ten years. What would you change to meet that requirement?

It is the word mandated that concerns me. No I do not have all 150 watt bulbs in my home that burn 24/7. For the most part , by my choice,I have slowly replaced my lighting with the cfl's. Yes I like the idea of saving my wallet and I also like not changing bulbs, hard to find a electrician around my house. If the manufactures would present the public with HONEST information as to the personal savings, electrical savings and what steps to take for responsible disposal then most people will go with the idea because who doesnt like to save money? The problem with mandating is that it starts small and when every one gets comfortable with it something a bit larger comes along to be mandated and the cycle will not stop and where will we be then? You and President Carter have a nice day. As far as what I would do to reduce my consumption, turn off that damn up light my wife has on a plant in the living room!

 

[Twodollar]

Some bulbs have far more mercury than others, even in the same 'category'.

48" T8 lamps might have anything from 3.5mg to 10mg of mercury; CFLs might have up to 5mg, though some manufacturers are claiming less than 1.5mg in their lamps.

Some large metal halide lamps might have 150mg of mercury.

I came across the concept of 'picograms per lumen hour' as a rating for bulbs; basically the amount of mercury divided by the expected light output over the life of a bulb; and the numbers are all over the map, with CLFs seeming to do worse in general than 4 foot tubes.

-Jon

4mg of mercury is less than what is in a watch battery. Think about that.

 

[George Stolz]

Mmm...I like this hard spot I'm in...

This says that I'm supposed to...

Prevent the discussion of an inappropriate topics, such as politics, religion, race, cultural heritage, or union versus non-union situations.

So, let's not get too political here, folks. I honestly don't want to close this, but I don't want 30 people to start hating each other either.

I'm leaving the posts that are up there up there, but please curb the politics.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Maybe if these bleeding heart liberals would... oh, wait. Sorry George my oops!

 

[dbuckley]

Yes, I was aware that quoting old presidents might be a bit close to the bone as most fora do frown upon political statements, but it's in the spirit of history rather than politics.

But, the problem is that the environment is politics. CEB says he doesn't like things he believes should be a free choice being mandated, and I (and probably everyone else here) agrees with him, but the unpalatable truth is that this is what governments (all governments of all countries) do, they tell the people what they may and may not do; the only variable is what the governments will pick on this week. The USA is under global pressure to "do something" about it's perceived environmental behavior, so you probably will see some stuff coming along sooner or later.

I haven't seen any mention of induction lamps as an alternative to CFLs; have they got any traction? GE Genura is the name that springs to mind?

 

[realolman]

Are we worse than other countries...say China?

We had a similar discussion about global warming at work the other day and a guy said,"They want me to quit using spray deodorant while China's spewing anything they feel like into the atmosphere? I don't think so"

Any validity?

 

[dbuckley]

Yes, there is some serious validity behind the assertion, but not necessarily the response to that assertion

In short: China... is a problem

When Most of the World agreed to try and do something about CO2 emissions, a number of then developing countries were left out, and China was one of them. Due to globalisation those countries that no-one cared about ('cos frankly the people were all riding bicycles) are now both major consumers of energy and major generators of pollution. Their industrial processes are often far dirtier than the same processes carried out in the USA or (most of) Europe.

The opposite side of this coin is that China is basically just an off-shore manufacturing arm of the USA, and that economically, the USA and China are the same place.

China is the one country in the world than could destroy the USA right now, by simply calling in the money that the USA owes them, but they wont, 'cos China will go down too. Mutually Assured Destruction, but with dollars not nukes. (Actually, Japan could play the same card but wont do it either, because (a) the Japan / USA bond is much tighter politically, and (b) they also have too much to lose, and (c) I think it would offend their honour)

But.... the fact that China is - today - outside of most activities to clean up emissions, it doesn't follow that no-one else should do anything either.

There was a funny about something similar to this on the news the other day. All cars have catalytic converters to reduce emissions, and very effective they are too. But there is a price to be paid for all that cleanliness, theres a place in Russia where they mine the precious metals that go into these converters, and that factory complex is a massive polluter. Info here.