Here's an interesting article:
Information on Proper Disposal of Compact Fluorescent Light Bulbs (CFLs)
Information on Proper Disposal of Compact Fluorescent Light Bulbs (CFLs)
Is this what we have to look forward to?
- Thread starter jaylectricity
- Start date
- Status
Brady Electric
Senior Member
- Location
- Asheville, N. C.
Is this what we have to look forward to
Is this what we have to look forward to
Good points George sometimes I miss the bus on these issues but all of you have good points which make me stop and think. My brain is warm now and I'm a bit smarter thanks to this thread.Semper Fi.
Is this what we have to look forward to
Good points George sometimes I miss the bus on these issues but all of you have good points which make me stop and think. My brain is warm now and I'm a bit smarter thanks to this thread.Semper Fi.
celtic said:
I'm one who also believes that burning water (hydrogen and oxygen) is the only real solution to world energy needs.
That's a mouth full....I know.....but the technology already exists....sorta like the "mad scientist" that Celtic refers to.
I wonder how much a person'e life would be worth if he had that technology?
I'm sure that "Big Oil" wouldn't want the technology developed.
Meanwhile.....we're killing ourselves and our environment by burning all of this fossil fuel.
In the future....if man survives.....the twentieth century will be looked back on as a dark period in human affairs.
I can hear it now....."Why did they do that....the solution was so simple".
Oh yea.....I think that CFL's are a good trade off against more fossil fuel power plants.
Just a opinion.
steve
boater bill
Senior Member
- Location
- Cape Coral, Fl.
Kudo's George for keeping positive viewpoints and discussions. I think that this is another example of unintended consequence. We do something because it is the right thing to do and up pops an unintended consequence.
Mercury for energy saving? I would rather spend time finding other more effective ways to reduce energy consumption that doesn't create toxins in landfills and childrens bedrooms.
Mercury for energy saving? I would rather spend time finding other more effective ways to reduce energy consumption that doesn't create toxins in landfills and childrens bedrooms.
winnie
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MA, USA
- Occupation
- Electric motor research
I believe that Hydrogen is an interesting tool for energy _storage_, but that it is a very poor _source_ of energy.
You cannot find significant free Hydrogen in nature, which means that you need to _make_ the hydrogen. Thus hydrogen is only a 'clean' as its source.
The most common way to make Hydrogen today: reacting fossil fuels with steam to produce a mixture of CO2 and H2, then separating out the gasses to get pure H2.
CF lamps are also very interesting tools. Their use should be encouraged everywhere it makes sense. But there are lots of places where a good incandescent lamp is actually better for the job, so banning incandescent lamps is a poor way to encourage more efficient use of energy.
The Mercury in a CF lamp is roughly the same as the amount of Mercury that would have been released into the atmosphere if an incandescent lamp had been used to produce the same amount of light, perhaps a bit lower. If we are talking the _same_ amount of Mercury released, I'd rather have it in a glass tube in a land fill, then dispersed into the air. Recycling the lamp to reclaim the Mercury is better still, but on the Mercury front I believe that CF lamps are still a win even with landfill disposal.
LED lighting is interesting, but not yet there in terms of efficiency or cost for bulk lighting. At the present time CF lamps put out more 'lumens per watt' or units of light per unit of energy. But LEDs are getting more efficient in ways that are almost shocking. 5 years ago I would have said that incandescent halogen lamps when properly run were more efficient than LEDs, and 10 years ago normal incandescent lamps were more efficient than LEDs. In 5 year or less I expect LEDs in the distribution chain that are more efficient than CF lamps.
Where LED lighting is already an efficiency win is for low power situations. CF lamps get less efficient as they are manufactured in smaller sizes. At the 5W input level, LED lighting is more efficient than anything else out there. For things like flashlights where you pay lots for the electricity, a LED light is the only thing that makes sense.
-Jon
You cannot find significant free Hydrogen in nature, which means that you need to _make_ the hydrogen. Thus hydrogen is only a 'clean' as its source.
The most common way to make Hydrogen today: reacting fossil fuels with steam to produce a mixture of CO2 and H2, then separating out the gasses to get pure H2.
CF lamps are also very interesting tools. Their use should be encouraged everywhere it makes sense. But there are lots of places where a good incandescent lamp is actually better for the job, so banning incandescent lamps is a poor way to encourage more efficient use of energy.
The Mercury in a CF lamp is roughly the same as the amount of Mercury that would have been released into the atmosphere if an incandescent lamp had been used to produce the same amount of light, perhaps a bit lower. If we are talking the _same_ amount of Mercury released, I'd rather have it in a glass tube in a land fill, then dispersed into the air. Recycling the lamp to reclaim the Mercury is better still, but on the Mercury front I believe that CF lamps are still a win even with landfill disposal.
LED lighting is interesting, but not yet there in terms of efficiency or cost for bulk lighting. At the present time CF lamps put out more 'lumens per watt' or units of light per unit of energy. But LEDs are getting more efficient in ways that are almost shocking. 5 years ago I would have said that incandescent halogen lamps when properly run were more efficient than LEDs, and 10 years ago normal incandescent lamps were more efficient than LEDs. In 5 year or less I expect LEDs in the distribution chain that are more efficient than CF lamps.
Where LED lighting is already an efficiency win is for low power situations. CF lamps get less efficient as they are manufactured in smaller sizes. At the 5W input level, LED lighting is more efficient than anything else out there. For things like flashlights where you pay lots for the electricity, a LED light is the only thing that makes sense.
-Jon
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
I'm all for saving the planet, but most of the damage has already been done.
How many HPS, Mercurey Vapor lamps and Flouresent tubes have we thrown away since they were first introduced? Millions? Billions?
How many millions of gallons of paint? Lead based? Oil based? Before they decided that it was a bad idea.
Yes sometimes a fix just creates another problem, but which part carries the most weight in good done?
How many HPS, Mercurey Vapor lamps and Flouresent tubes have we thrown away since they were first introduced? Millions? Billions?
How many millions of gallons of paint? Lead based? Oil based? Before they decided that it was a bad idea.
Yes sometimes a fix just creates another problem, but which part carries the most weight in good done?
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
realolman said:
A similar amount of mercury would be released into the atmosphere from the combustion of coal to produce the same amount of electricity required for an incandescent.
marshallf3
Member
There is so little mercury in CFLs that it's hardly worth mentioning. A common can of Tuna probably has enough to make 100 bulbs.
marshallf3 said:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-bulbs24feb24,0,2077530.story?coll=la-home-headlines
How many cans of tuna is that?
marshallf3
Member
I tend to specify these: http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/
Let's not get into an uproar about this, the amount of mercury present in a modern fluorescent bulb is miniscule.
Let's not get into an uproar about this, the amount of mercury present in a modern fluorescent bulb is miniscule.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Well, it's good that proper disposal has been mentioned.
marshallf3 said:
really? says who?what about this ?
how are we to know who's telling the truth? certainly not "big business" they're only out to make more $$$$
As each CFL contains five milligrams of mercury, at the Maine "safety" standard of 300 nanograms per cubic meter, it would take 16,667 cubic meters of soil to "safely" contain all the mercury in a single CFL. While CFL vendors and environmentalists tout the energy cost savings of CFLs, they conveniently omit the personal and societal costs of CFL disposal.
Not only are CFLs much more expensive than incandescent bulbs and emit light that many regard as inferior to incandescent bulbs, they pose a nightmare if they break and require special disposal procedures. Yet governments (egged on by environmentalists and the Wal-Marts of the world) are imposing on us such higher costs, denial of lighting choice, disposal hassles and breakage risks in the name of saving a few dollars every year on the electric bill? -
? National Post 2007
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
I need help understanding. Is there more mercury in a CFL than there is in a standard flourescent tube?
winnie
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MA, USA
- Occupation
- Electric motor research
Dennis Alwon said:
Some bulbs have far more mercury than others, even in the same 'category'.
48" T8 lamps might have anything from 3.5mg to 10mg of mercury; CFLs might have up to 5mg, though some manufacturers are claiming less than 1.5mg in their lamps.
Some large metal halide lamps might have 150mg of mercury.
I came across the concept of 'picograms per lumen hour' as a rating for bulbs; basically the amount of mercury divided by the expected light output over the life of a bulb; and the numbers are all over the map, with CLFs seeming to do worse in general than 4 foot tubes.
-Jon
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Thanks winnie-- so the problem of mercury has been with us for quite a while. I guess the issue is that now we will have tons more of these mercury based bulbs.
Education is the answer-- we must educate the public about the potential problems with these units and proper disposal. I have yet to see anything significant in the education of the public. Who reads the box that they come in. I certainly never would but I never bought one either.
Education is the answer-- we must educate the public about the potential problems with these units and proper disposal. I have yet to see anything significant in the education of the public. Who reads the box that they come in. I certainly never would but I never bought one either.
tomP
Member
- Location
- W83?24'33" N42?16'19"
All this is so hard for me to grasp. We were given drops of mercury to shine pennies with when I was in school.
Now if a drop of mercury is "loose" we have to decontaminate.
Don't misunderstand, the knowledge about the dangers of this and many other items is
good and proper disposal is necessary.
Its just amazing to me how far safety and enviromental concern has progressed in the last 50 to 60 years.
I use CFL's, but make sure to include bad ones in the household hazardous waste when it is collected.
Where do they go from there is what I wonder about.
Now if a drop of mercury is "loose" we have to decontaminate.
Don't misunderstand, the knowledge about the dangers of this and many other items is
good and proper disposal is necessary.
Its just amazing to me how far safety and enviromental concern has progressed in the last 50 to 60 years.
I use CFL's, but make sure to include bad ones in the household hazardous waste when it is collected.
Where do they go from there is what I wonder about.
winnie
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MA, USA
- Occupation
- Electric motor research
realolman said:
In my opinion:
CFL lamps are a very good choice for many applications. You should use them in any fixture where the light is on for long periods of time, where the absolute quality of the light is not of prime importance, and where you don't need dimming.
For example, if you leave a light on in your front hall all night long, a CFL is a good choice. Small fixtures that burn for long hours are the right place to put these bulbs.
You pay more for the CFL lamp up front, but save lots on the electricity used....IF the lamp reaches its expected life. Buy lamps with long warranties, and mark the installation date on the lamp when you install it. Manufacturers won't improve their quality if no one holds them to their warranty claims. Lots of people report CFL lamps burning out quickly, but no one reports doing anything about it. I've personally found some CFLs lasting a good long time, and others dying quickly.
A CFL is probably a bad choice for the lights around the mirror in the bathroom, because of poor 'color rendering'. This is a feature that I expect to improve in the future.
A CFL is a bad choice for lights that are turned on and off frequently.
Many CFL lamps are sensitive to heat, and won't do well in sealed fixtures. However _some_ CFL lamps are rated for high temperatures; select carefully at installation.
Many CFL lamps don't start well at low temperature; for outdoor use be sure to select a suitable lamp for your climate.
Most CFLs cannot be dimmed. I don't trust dimmable CFL technology, but it is out there. I suggest 'multi-level-switching' over dimming.
For serious bulk lighting, other types of lighting make more sense. Don't use CFLs where 4 foot tubes could be used, for example.
The amount of mercury present in CFL lamps is quite low. The ideal is to keep the CFL lamps out of the normal trash stream, and keep them out of landfills. If your community has lamp collection/recycling, then use it. If not, then simply throw the lamp out. On balance, the mercury in CFL lamps is less of a problem than the environmental costs of the energy production that they displace.
Oppose any laws that blindly mandate the use of CFL lamps. There are situations where a good old hot filament is the way to go, and other times where we blindly use the hot filament because that is what we used 50 years ago. Educate yourself as to the best tools to use for a given lighting job, and then sell those to your customers.
-Jon
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Well said winnie. I would also add that beyond the scope of using CFL's where the hall lights burn all night we need to educate people to turn the lights off. There is often no reason to leave lights on day and night the way many do. I leave a room and I turn of the power to the light. Why pay the power company more than we need to and why waste energy. For many of us it is just a bad habit.
- Status