Journeymen playing E.C.

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Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

I am sure I did not coin the phrase "spontaneous construction" (but if I did..who cares :) ). I "came up" with that phrase while "home shopping" a decade ago - it was amazing what people "build" in their own homes.
I can only wonder what architectural/engineering feats I will be assaulted with when I look for my next house in a few years - with the influx of Big Orange/Blue in just about every neighborhood and the constant bombardment of DIY and "How to" shows, every HO is not only a painter, but also a plumber, an electrician, and a carpenter.

Maybe if it was in Latin it would have greater appeal to the "masses" - like caveat emperatus..."spontaneus erectus" :D
 
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

Just an update. It took 6 phone calls and 3 trips to the job site to finally get the city to take action. I feel sorry for the owner as the city official who called me to find out what was going on was a women and by the time I told her my story she was pretty fired up. When I gave her the address of the duplex she said thats not an address even in our system. I said well I have been there 3 times and I can assure you it exists. She told me they dont have a record of it because the owner had turned a single family dwelling into a duplex and that is against the city ordinance. Apparently they showed only 1 address for that location while the homeowner turned it into 2 addresses and didnt tell the city. I think the city is going to get pretty deep into the owners pockets on this 1. I think by the time the city is done the j-man who started the job will think twice about pretending to be a master electrician/electrical contractor, and the owner will wish he had hired a licensed electrical contractor. :D
 
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

Originally posted by GG:
Just an update. ...I think by the time the city is done the j-man who started the job will think twice about pretending to be a master electrician/electrical contractor, and the owner will wish he had hired a licensed electrical contractor. :D
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I was on a call yesterday with that "EC"s cousin ~ the plumbing "contractor" (PC)wanna-be. This clown had cards and all printed, told a HO he could do the plumbing, sheetrock, tile, elec., etc. A neighbor didn't agree and called the city. The HO gets a $3700 fine, the PC flew the coup, and I get $100 for putting ina GFCI (just the one ~ I don't think one will cost $3600 like my last one :D )
I told the HO he should sue the "PC", call the plumbing board, etc. The HO has a partially gutted/roughed bathroom, is out $5 - 6k on the "PC" bill, $3700 in fines, $100 to me (plus $45 for the permit), $80 for the sheetrock permit...PLUS the cost of hiring a REAL plumber and a tile man because the wanna-be is nowhere to found and won't answer his phone.
At first the HO was considering not going after the wanna-be PC...until I did the math for him - this tiny bathroom will cost in excess of 15k now. :mad:
 
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

I guess you would not want to operate in Massachusetts. Here as a journeyman you are allowed to operate a business as a contractor with one apprentice. You have to go through the motions of licensing and have the proper insurance. I have no problem with it.
 
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

In TX to get your city license where I live, they will not except a state license, you have to have 4 years as an apprentice and then be a licensed journeyman for 4 years and pass a masters exam before they will issue you a masters license. Although they dont call it a masters license but instead call it a permit license. So j-man who dont have a masters and go into business for themselves just took a 4 year shortcut and skipped the masters exam.

Scott, are you going to change your signature to "2000 posts"? Looks like you reached your goal of 1000 post a while back, time to set a new goal. :D

[ July 14, 2005, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: GG ]
 
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

The real problem as I see it, is there is no across the board definition of what a master or journeyman really means. Each state sets it's own standards or none. In some states it requires more to became a journeyman than a master in others, so the designation loses all meaning. In my state we have two types of license, restricted ( 200 Amp. single phase and under) and unrestricted. A restricted license is called a class 1 and an unrestricted is class 2. Since most people think one is better than two, you just state master electrician and go with it. You are allowed to hire as many people as you like and no one checks to make sure the jobs are supervised by a master. Low voltage is completely seperate. You have contractors that have been tested and you have grand-fathered. You go one state in any direction and the rules change. The thing I think we can all agree on is that here should be some standard so just anyone can't start doing electrical work and call themselves an EC. I like the word " certified " but many are using that after taking a class in electrical, so I guess that " State Certified " would be my real choice.
 
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

Here in Maryland to operate as an EC you must have a State Masters license. Then you need a license from each county you do work in. You need to show proof of insurance. Things are slowly starting to change. A couple counties are now requiring anyone who works in that county to have a j-mans license (or a masters). That J-mans lic. just means you passed the test and paid the fee, you will still need to work under a master.
 
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

Originally posted by GG:
Scott, are you going to change your signature to "2000 posts"? Looks like you reached your goal of 1000 post a while back, time to set a new goal. :D
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We haven't had the elusive 1000 post thread yet, GG. :D

But I am currently plotting a stirring debate that will take the stupid argument genre by storm. :D

210.52 had been a mine for such talks, but I'm sure there's an even fuzzier section somewhere... :p
 
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

No, that would be a 2 post thread: The original question and a statement from a Moderator that the thread is being closed. We're not going there. :D
 
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

Since having never worked in a union nor merit shop, just worked in industrial settings, what is considered a j-man, and from there to master?

[ July 15, 2005, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: jbfan74 ]
 
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

Originally posted by jbfan74:
....just worked in industrial settings, what is considered a j-man, and from there to master?
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The terminology may vary from state to state.

In NJ, basically:
- a helper/apprentice is the lowman on the pole - starting off as a "gopher".
- after about 5 years, the gopher would be considered a journeyman/mechanic...and after sending in the appropiate fee, would be issued a card from the state that says "Qualified Journeyman".
- With the 5 years experience, the journeyman would also be allowed to take the state EC test and become a licensed electrician.

A "Qualified Journeyman" is NOT any sort of license or credential that would allow a person to open up shop.
A licensed electrician is the only one that open up shop. Some ECs like to add "Licensed Master Electrician" to all their advertising, but as there is NO master status in NJ it's kind of pointless (unless said EC likes to stroke his/her own ego).

[ July 15, 2005, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: celtic ]
 
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

I think the definition varies from place to place.

It used to be easier to define when it was all union. An apprentice was a learner who became a journeyman and eventually a master.

These days it is not so simple. Many (maybe most in some areas) are no longer union, and states and localities have started using these terms in licensing. Often the licensing requirements do not directly correspond to the old union definitions.

Personally, if we have to have licensing, I would prefer to see a multi-tiered setup. maybe something like:

-helper

Basically a person who only does work under direct supervision of an actual electrician

-apprentice

A learner who has limited autonomy as defined by his supervising electrican

-residential electrician

Someone qualified and experienced in all phases of residential electrical work

-commercial electrician

Someone qualified and experienced in all phases of commercial electrical work

-industrial electrician

Someone qualified and experienced in all phases of industrial electrical work

-datacomm installer

Alarm, telephone, data, etc installers

-electrical contractor

Maybe a requirement to have been an electrician for some period of time before being able to contract.

I see the major flaw in the current systems as the theory that you can train an apprentice to be adept in all areas of electrical work. The fact is that you cannot do so, and to attempt it is doomed to fail. Better to select one of the fields and stick to it.
 
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

Bob, who would determine if someone was experienced and qualified in a certain area of electrical work, and how should this be done? You could use referances ( who's to say the one giving the reference is qualified ),You could use documentation ( how do you verify ), or you could just give a test ( one designed to be a bit difficult, where there's lots of money to be made teaching prep. courses ). No matter what you do it's not going to be fool proof.
 
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

I can not agree with you Bob

I have grown up in a State with licensing and it's simple

Apprentice; can not pull a permit, has to work under direct supervision of a licensed person.

Journeyman; can pull a permit, can work alone or run a business with up to one apprentice

Master; can pull a permit, can work alone and run a business of any size.

It's simple and it works, I see no reason for sub-categories. The only reason the state would implement that would be for more licensing fees.

Here in this area licensing only demonstrates the ability to understand and use the code book. Licensing has nothing to do with determining which section of the industry one belongs in.
 
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

In GA their are 2 classes of license. Class 1 which is limited to 200 amps or less single phase, and class 2, which is unlimited. You can use your license to qualify one company. Only one license is needed no matter how many employees you have. That is why I could not understand the J-man versus master debate. You also need a low voltage license to do phone and cable work in resi.

[ July 15, 2005, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: jbfan74 ]
 
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

Originally posted by iwire:
I can not agree with you Bob

I have grown up in a State with licensing and it's simple

Apprentice; can not pull a permit, has to work under direct supervision of a licensed person.

Journeyman; can pull a permit, can work alone or run a business with up to one apprentice

Master; can pull a permit, can work alone and run a business of any size.

It's simple and it works, I see no reason for sub-categories. The only reason the state would implement that would be for more licensing fees.

Here in this area licensing only demonstrates the ability to understand and use the code book. Licensing has nothing to do with determining which section of the industry one belongs in.
Click to expand...
My problem with this system is that is a huge difference between residential, commerical and industrial work. If the goal of licensing is to protectr the public, why not actually protect the public?
 
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

I did commercial & industrial work for 20 years before going into residential service & remodeling work. I didn't have any trouble understanding the codes. I did have trouble with the difference in price and trying to make money. I still have trouble with Romex and plastic boxes, not running it but believing that it's acceptable for permanent wiring ( old habits die hard ). It's not that big of a deal to step down a notch and they don't let residential contractors do commercial.
 
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

Originally posted by petersonra:
My problem with this system is that is a huge difference between residential, commerical and industrial work. If the goal of licensing is to protectr the public, why not actually protect the public?
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I fully agree there is a huge difference between residential, commercial and industrial work.

But it is all covered under one code.

The code is there to protect people and property.

The code is not in place to make sure person 'A' knows how to correctly wire a PLC and that person 'B' knows how to correctly wire a home theater system.

If all electricians follow the NEC the job should be free from hazard even if the machine does not work.

Yes, of course it is possible to wire a machine in compliance with the NEC and at the same time have it be operationally dangers (e-stops not working etc.) that is where industrial facilities have to be careful who they employ and make sure new ECs are supervised until it is clear that they are qualified.

I do understand that many licensed electricians can not read ladder diagrams or even blue prints, you must understand that other than industrial work ladder diagrams are almost never seen and many licensed electricians never handle blue prints. I know this must be a problem for guys in your line of work but I really do not see it as a NEC life safety issue.
 
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.

Originally posted by jbfan74:
In GA their are 2 classes of license. ... You also need a low voltage license to do phone and cable work in resi.
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The NJ license req. for LV is actually a "non-license"...an exemption.
An EC can do any job, any size, any manpower...a LVC can only work LV(under 50v, if I recall) jobs, any size, any manpower.

Journeymen are NOT permitted to pull ANY electrical permits whatsoever.


EC/LVC are also required to carry insurance.
 
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