junction box in attic-inspector question

[electricmanscott]

I already did but to humor you one more time. Can you explain to me how you are confusing a ceiling tile and blown insulation. I do believe we are talking about two separate items.

But to address your question in full should that drop ceiling be installed in a manner that didn’t allow for removal and replacement of the tile then the box wouldn’t be allowed to be installed there would it?


And finally for those who do not know permission is given to allow a box to be installed above a suspended ceiling in 300.23

Did I cover this in enough detail for you this time?

If insulation is a building finish as you say, (it's not to sane people) than a ceiling tile most certainly would be a building finish and thereby NO jboxes would be allowed there because you would have to disturb the building finish to get at them. 300.23 be damned!

 

[electricmanscott]

This goes down as another Mike Whitt classic. For the newbies, just hang in there he won't give up but he will go away. Eventually.

 

[readydave8]

I have been in this industry for almost 37 years, I have had to find j-boxes in all kinds of attics and in some of the hottest weather, but did I ever complain, no, it part of doing electrical work, do I hate getting all itchy sure but its part of the job, to say we can't disturb insulation is just goofy, there are all kinds of repairs that will require going up into an attic and disturbing the insulation, HVAC guys have to do it all the time, this is the most dumbest argument I have ever seen on this board, we have been putting j-box's in attics for as long as electricity has been put in buildings, anyone who has been doing this kind of work knows that there will come a day you will have to look for a box in the attics, ITS PART OF THE JOB, I had an inspector who had a bad leg once tried to reject a job, because he couldn't climb a ladder to see into the attic so he red tagged the job because he knew there was a junction box in the attic, well he lost in court as the state ruled it was accessible, in Indiana we have a formal interpretation that junctions boxes in attics meet the intent of the NEC, anyone who can't look for a junction box does not need to be doing electrical work, if your that lazy stay home or find another profession, because it doesn't mater if in the attic or crawl space, if you don't have the right tools to locate wiring you will never be able to properly trouble shoot any electrical system, I have the tools, I have the knowledge, and I do trouble shoot, if you think you will never have to put a junction box in an attic, then I say you haven't done many re-wires, or had to deal with extending circuits to install a receptacle on another wall, or install a paddle fan, and many other things we must do as electrician's, how would you ever relocate a light fixture, would you tear open the walls just to run new wire to the inaccessible switch? bet you wouldn't have to many customers after that, plain and simple, insulation is not a building finish, it is not part of the structure, and is not in any intent of the code making panel as a reason do disallow a junction box in the attic! I will go back into the ROC's to find where this was once requested in a proposal that was shot down, can't remember if it was the 1996 cycle or the 1999 but I remember it was once proposed.
Sorry for the rant, but when some say they will turn a job down just because they don't like it, gets me going. Don't walk on my Constitutional rights, show me the legally adopted law that says you can enforce it or I would have you in court! Self interpretation is not a legal law!

thats right, although not very tactful

 

[electricmanscott]

"Old work" is illegal.

I'm sending e-mails to all manufacturers of IC rated remodel recessed lights. They must be removed from the market immediately.

 

[M. D.]

To go along with Wayne's ROP I give you the ROC .. so is the insulation attic flooring ? no it is not . Mike any time one enters an attic with blown in insulation it is " removed " according to your standard,. just by moving around .....

9-91 Log #143 NEC-P09 Final Action: Reject
( 314.29 )
________________________________________________________________
Submitter: David Shapiro, Safety First Electrical Contracting, Consulting,
and Safety Education
Comment on Proposal No: 9-69
Recommendation: Accept with the word “concealed” replaced with “hidden”.
Substantiation: The CMP is correct that I misspoke when I talked of conceal-
ment generally being legal; I had in mind the colloquial rather than the Article
100 meaning of the term. Surely if Mr. Hartwellʼs contractors are not forced
to rely on patience and luck to discover hidden j-boxes under loose aggregate,
they shouldnʼt have to do so inside structures. Digging up gravel is less of an
imposition than is chopping holes in walls and ceilings when circuit tracers are ineffective.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject

Panel Statement:
The panel continues to reject the proposal because the NEC
does not allow boxes to be installed in an area hidden by structural features.
Wall and ceiling finishes should not be required to be removed if boxes are
accessible, as required by 314.29 as presently worded. The present language in the exception to 314.29 does permit concealment of boxes.

Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11

________________________________________________________________

 

[readydave8]

I have seen many ceiling tiles with insulation on top of them.

Have'nt seen an answer to this one yet--can I take out a ceiling tile in North Carolina if there is insulation on top of it? Not that I enjoy doing so but I have.

 

[mivey]

Have'nt seen an answer to this one yet--can I take out a ceiling tile in North Carolina if there is insulation on top of it?

Well you could, but then you would be subject to prosecution. The law is the law.

Not that I enjoy doing so but I have.

Better to just turn yourself in and get it over with. No need to spend the rest of your life wondering when they will find you.

 

[readydave8]

You fully expect to see breakers behind those covers and dead fronts.

just like looking for an open in a circuit and finally finding a device in an odd place? or behind a heavy piece of furniture?
Do you not expect to find outlets every 12 ft or less?
I might find them every three feet, that doesn't make them easier to find.

And usually don't have to go back to junction box that I put in, just lucky I guess.

Suppose you did not install these.
Then I charge to move insulation to find them. The more junction boxes, the more insulation, the more I charge, the more I make. I might complain and whine but I still fix the problem and deposit the check.

http://www.oatey.com/Channel/Shared/ProductGroupDetail/65/Access_Able_Access_Panels.html

.................

 

[LarryFine]

But to address your question in full should that drop ceiling be installed in a manner that didn’t allow for removal and replacement of the tile then the box wouldn’t be allowed to be installed there would it?

Now, I see. It's blown-in insulation that is installed in a manner that doesn't allow for removal and replacement that you have a problem with.

But, just to clarify, you are okay with building material removal and replacement, generally speaking, yes?

 

[mcclary's electrical]

A plate cover is part of the electrical system and is not part of the building that is being removed to acess the electrical system.

Using your logic a junction box could be installed behind a finished sheetrock wall.

Now you're grasping at straws, sheetrock is not part of the electrical system. Just admit you must have bumped your head yesterday, you weren't thinking clearly, but now you understand.

 

[jwelectric]

I know that it is the mentality of some of the members of this forum to enforce their argument by trying to belittle their opponent during a debate such as this one. Well to them I simply say your actions speak loudly to a lot of people.

The original question;

Is it illegal to put a 4 square j-box in the attic on rafters and then cover the j-box with insulation?

To which the answer is unquestionably no as outlined in 314.29 and in the statements of the code panel posted here on this forum
Panel Statement:
The panel continues to reject the proposal because the NEC
does not allow boxes to be installed in an area hidden by structural features.
Wall and ceiling finishes should not be required to be removed if boxes are
accessible, as required by 314.29 as presently worded. The present language in the exception to 314.29 does permit concealment of boxes..

There has been a few that has mentioned a suspended ceiling, some post pictures of device plate covers and even an access door none which addresses the question at hand.

In 314.29 it does not give a limit on what effort that has to be taken to expose the junction box in simply says that no part of the building can be removed in order to access the box. It wouldn?t matter if it was a jack hammer to remove a brick, a saws-all to remove wood, a utility knife to remove plastic, or one?s hand to remove insulation the NEC is clear that no part of the building can cover the box.

Now we have those who are hung up on the word ?finish? which is not mentioned in 314.29.
What it does say is NO part of the building can be removed in order to access the junction box. There is no difference between removing a brick and replacing it, cutting a hole in sheetrock and patching it back and pushing insulation off the top of an electrical box and replacing the insulation. Each and all of these are removing the building material in order to access the electrical box.

Please explain how crawling around in the attic to fix leaky pipes and repair the duck work on the air system. Talk about removing panels from a suspended ceiling or access panels to allow access to plumbing all your heart desires and talk about how much insulation you can carry around on your cloths after coming down out of an attic. It still won?t change the original question nor does any of this cock and bull address the question. Is the box compliant with the NEC if at the time of final inspection the box is located under 12 inches of insulation. Again the answer to the original question is; it is not in compliance with 314.29.

As Scott said I will leave as I come to realize that it takes two fools to argue therefore I will leave you to argue with each other.

For the benefit of those who work in NC please understand that just because an inspector signs off on your work you are still liable for the installation. Should someone like me come along and find your box under a bunch of insulation rest assured that the compliant officer from the licensing board will be giving you a call to explain to you how the state enforces 314.29.

 

[iwire]

I know that it is the mentality of some of the members of this forum to enforce their argument by trying to belittle their opponent during a debate such as this one.

As always you set the tone right off the bat with this

This is so easy I don?t understand why everyone don?t see it.

When I read that I see it as All of you are bunch of idiots and only I, the great Mike can see the truth.

Once you went that route with your second post in this thread I would say the gloves are off and you have to take what you gave out.

For the benefit of those who work in NC please understand that just because an inspector signs off on your work you are still liable for the installation. Should someone like me come along and find your box under a bunch of insulation rest assured that the compliant officer from the licensing board will be giving you a call to explain to you how the state enforces 314.29.

I am calling you out on this as IMO it is simply a fantasy in your mind and if they are enforcing it as you describe they are entirely wrong as you are here.

Sometimes it truly bothers me that you are a teacher training future electricians.

 

[fishin' electrician]

So I guess that a lay-in sheetrock scuttle hole attic access panel needs to be hinged, otherwise I'm removing part of the building to get to the completely exposed junction box for my gable vent fan.:roll:

 

[mcclary's electrical]

As always you set the tone right off the bat with this



When I read that I see it as All of you are bunch of idiots and only I, the great Mike can see the truth.

Once you went that route with your second post in this thread I would say the gloves are off and you have to take what you gave out.




I am calling you out on this as IMO it is simply a fantasy in your mind and if they are enforcing it as you describe they are entirely wrong as you are here.

Sometimes it truly bothers me that you are a teacher training future electricians.

We can only hope his students will follow along here, and realize their teacher is living in his own homemade fantasy world.

 

[480sparky]

.........., some post pictures of device plate covers .............

OK, once again....... IT IS NOT A COVER PLATE.


Repeat, it is NOT a cover plate.





I never posted a cover plate photo.




Here is the photo I've posted. TWICE:

Again, I will ask you to LOOK CLOSELY at it. It is NOT a cover plate. THIS is a cover plate:

​

 

[One-eyed Jack]

OK, since you don't want to go back and read it, here it is again: Look close...............

This is NOT a cover plate. It is insulation....... which, according to you, cannot be disturbed.​

if I were to place this insulation behind the cover plate, I therefor render the wiring in the box illegal to access.​

Being fast and loose with word placement aren't we. It is NOT illegal to access the wiring in the box. It IS illegal to make the box inaccesible.

 

[480sparky]

Being fast and loose with word placement aren't we. It is NOT illegal to access the wiring in the box. It IS illegal to make the box inaccesible.

Sigh.

According to someone here who shall remain nameless, you cannot move insulation in order to access the wiring.

Therefore, installing these insulation pads behind the cover plates would render the box illegal to access.

 

[electricguy61]

I know that it is the mentality of some of the members of this forum to enforce their argument by trying to belittle their opponent during a debate such as this one. Well to them I simply say your actions speak loudly to a lot of people.

The original question;

Is it illegal to put a 4 square j-box in the attic on rafters and then cover the j-box with insulation?

To which the answer is unquestionably no as outlined in 314.29 and in the statements of the code panel posted here on this forum
Panel Statement:
The panel continues to reject the proposal because the NEC
does not allow boxes to be installed in an area hidden by structural features.

wall and ceiling finishes should not be required to be removed if boxes are
accessible, as required by 314.29 as presently worded. The present language in the exception to 314.29 does permit concealment of boxes..

There has been a few that has mentioned a suspended ceiling, some post pictures of device plate covers and even an access door none which addresses the question at hand.

In 314.29 it does not give a limit on what effort that has to be taken to expose the junction box in simply says that no part of the building can be removed in order to access the box. It wouldn’t matter if it was a jack hammer to remove a brick, a saws-all to remove wood, a utility knife to remove plastic, or one’s hand to remove insulation the NEC is clear that no part of the building can cover the box.

Now we have those who are hung up on the word “finish” which is not mentioned in 314.29.
What it does say is NO part of the building can be removed in order to access the junction box. There is no difference between removing a brick and replacing it, cutting a hole in sheetrock and patching it back and pushing insulation off the top of an electrical box and replacing the insulation. Each and all of these are removing the building material in order to access the electrical box.

Please explain how crawling around in the attic to fix leaky pipes and repair the duck work on the air system. Talk about removing panels from a suspended ceiling or access panels to allow access to plumbing all your heart desires and talk about how much insulation you can carry around on your cloths after coming down out of an attic. It still won’t change the original question nor does any of this cock and bull address the question. Is the box compliant with the NEC if at the time of final inspection the box is located under 12 inches of insulation. Again the answer to the original question is; it is not in compliance with 314.29.

As Scott said I will leave as I come to realize that it takes two fools to argue therefore I will leave you to argue with each other.

For the benefit of those who work in NC please understand that just because an inspector signs off on your work you are still liable for the installation. Should someone like me come along and find your box under a bunch of insulation rest assured that the compliant officer from the licensing board will be giving you a call to explain to you how the state enforces 314.29.

Can I call bull stuff?:grin:

 

[electricguy61]

Can I bring up whether it's OK to have the service mast inside the wall of a structure?

I just love these 4 page debates :grin:

 

[iwire]

Can I bring up whether it's OK to have the service mast inside the wall of a structure?

No. ...........