brycenesbitt
Senior Member
- Location
- United States
Yes, and they can change their vote, so influence or information after the public input can sway the vote in theory.
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- Thread starter tortuga
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brycenesbitt
Senior Member
- Location
- United States
At CMP-12 today's big topic is compatibility of bath fans with AFCI,
in support of expanding AFCI devices to bathrooms, by ACMBA (American Circuit Breaker Manufacturer's Association).
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And testing results in support of AFCI expansion to attics, despite the difficult temperature and humidity environment in many attics.
in support of expanding AFCI devices to bathrooms, by ACMBA (American Circuit Breaker Manufacturer's Association).
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And testing results in support of AFCI expansion to attics, despite the difficult temperature and humidity environment in many attics.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Yes the votes at the meeting are not final...not even sure if they record anything other than the numbers at the meeting. When the final ballot is published, you can see how each panel member voted. Also as part of the ANSI consensus standard rules, all negative votes must have a comment. If there is no comment with the negative vote, that vote won't be counted.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
While I am not a supporter of the AFCI rules, unless the AFCI itself is installed in the difficult temperature and humidity environments, I don't see that as an issue.
brycenesbitt
Senior Member
- Location
- United States
That's exactly the point.
The new requirement is for AFCI for branch circuits for attics.
Think air handlers, whole house fans, water heaters.
The goal of the ACMBA (American Circuit Breaker Manufacturer's Association) testing was to test the actual OCPD devices in that environment. So that would be for an AFCI or GFCI receptacle.
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For my money the better move is to put that expensive AFCI in the panel. Then, we need to start shading panels from the sun, as electronics don't last as long when too hot. And frankly a metal panelboard in the sun may be worse off than the attic.
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There were quite a few sparks at the meeting about the location of the AFCI/GFCI, including a public input seeking to have those devices much closer to the point of use, meaning the receptacle. That was justified based on nuisance tripping requiring a caregiver or senior having to travel down stairs, potentially leaving a child unattended, or potentially falling on the stairs, just to reset a remote breaker.
brycenesbitt
Senior Member
- Location
- United States
I can confirm. Only the up/down count is recorded at the meeting time. No names. And the word "unanimous" in some panels does not count abstention or undervote.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Unless the testing showed that the receptacle type would not function correctly in that environment, I doubt that the ACMBA would release that type of information. There is a the ongoing fight between device manufacturers and breaker manufactures for the control of AFCI and GFCI devices, to the point that ACMBA would not even permit Leviton to join that organization after they became both a breaker and device manufacturer, even though most of the traditional breaker manufactures have divisions that also manufacture wiring devices.
The breaker people lobby for only breakers for those protections, and the wiring device people lobby for the extension of locations where receptacles can provide that protection.
In the 2017 cycle there were even shades of Indianhead V Allied Tube at the vote on Certified Amending Motions, with the breaker people voting to keep the "listed supplemental arc protection circuit breaker" in 210.12(A)(3) in the code. When you look at the vote on all of the CAMs that day, you find that almost twice as many votes were cast to keep that rule in the code...a rule that acts to limit the use of AFCI receptacles as the "listed supplemental arc protection circuit breaker" for all practical purposes does not actually exist.
I think with the requirement for one- and two-family dwellings to have their service disconnects outside we will see more in the outside location. We fail to look at the shift to the right on the time trip curve when we install thermal-magnetic breakers in lower ambients. Based on the average high temperatures in my area and then temperature shift information from one major breaker manufacturer a 400 amp breaker installed outside with have a 500 amp trip point for over 5 months of the year. Of course, those breaker will also have a shift to the left lowering the time point in higher ambient temperatures.
Leviton offers a magnetic breaker for their panels, and magnetic breakers are not temperature sensitive. Other brands also have that type of breaker but not sure if they have them in the typical branch circuit ampere ratings.
Elect117
Senior Member
- Location
- California
- Occupation
- Engineer E.E. P.E.
Doesn't overcurrent have to do both. Overload and faults? Wouldn't just having a magnetic trip make it noncompliant as a service disconnect? Or are we just talking emergency disconnect?
From a design standpoint, there’s no reason both functions can’t be accomplished by a magnetic-only device, especially a “smart” one.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Not a magnetic trip, a magnetic breaker...it provides protection from short circuits, ground faults, and overloads....it is just not temperature sensitive like a standard breaker.
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