Kitchen circuits

[sparky_magoo]

I am roping a kitchen today. Is there any reason why I can't run a twenty amp circuit to the range hood, then run to a receptacle in the appliance garage. I already have three SA circuits in this kitchen. I don't want the hood on a lighting circuit.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Originally posted by sparky_magoo:
I don't want the hood on a lighting circuit.

422.16 (B)(4) Range Hoods. Range hoods shall be permitted to be cord-and-plug connected with a flexible cord identified as suitable for use on range hoods in the installation instructions of the appliance manufacturer, where all of the following conditions are met:
(1) The flexible cord is terminated with a grounding-type attachment plug.
Exception: A listed range hood distinctly marked to identify it as protected by a system of double insulation, or its equivalent, shall not be required to be terminated with a grounding-type attachment plug.
(2) The length of the cord is not less than 450 mm (18 in.) and not over 900 mm (36 in.).
(3) Receptacles are located to avoid physical damage to the flexible cord.
(4) The receptacle is accessible.
(5) The receptacle is supplied by an individual branch circuit.

Then don't put it on a lighting circuit. Be sure to put it on a acicuit all by itself.


edited twice to get it right. Did i donit this time?

[ September 23, 2005, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen circuits

I'm not sure I understand the question. How many outlets are we talking about here?

Are you asking about having the circuit first go to the range hood (be it plug & cord or be it hard wired), and then also go to another (second) outlet, this one being a receptacle outlet within the appliance garage?

OR

Are you asking about having the circuit go directly to the appliance garage, and connect there to one and only one outlet, that being a receptacle outlet intended to serve the range hood (as a plug & cord device)?

If the answers are "Yes" and "No," in that order, then it is only OK if the range hood is hard wired. The article cited by Mike says you can't plug & cord connect the range hood unless it is on an individual circuit.

If the answers are "No" and "Yes," in that order, then it is OK, for the reason Mike gave.

If the answers are anything else, then I would need you to explain the circumstances more clearly.

 

[sparky_magoo]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Thank you for our responses. I had to go to work, so I haven't been timely in getting back to the forum.
I am way into this project. I don't have drawings from the cabinet manufacturer. I am scaling off the architechs conceptional drawings.

I can't get direction from the super., as to what kind of range hood will be installed, but he is pressuring me to finish. I wonder if the hood will be powered from some switching at the range.

To answer CharlieB, question one is correct. When I got to the shop this mourning, the owner shut me down, saying that the appliance garage is obviously a SA circuit. He told me to put the hood on the lighting circuit.

I don't think an appliance garage is a SA curcuit becase the receptacles are concealed within the garage. Am I wrong? Please help, I am not trying to staret a war. This is for-real.

 

[sparky_magoo]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Het guy's, help me out. Who is right, my boss or me? Is a receptacle in an appliance gearage part of the required SA curcuits. I want to go the hood first, then to the appliance garage. Is this illegal.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Which code cycle?

edited to add: If you are using a cord and plug on the hood and under the ?05 then the hood is all that you can hit

[ September 23, 2005, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Sparky.
NEC '05/ 210.52(C)(5)

Receptacle Outlet Location.
-Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appliances fasten in place,* appliance garages, sinks or rangetops as covered in 210.52(C)(1),Exception,or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered as these required outlets.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Kitchen circuits

When I got to the shop this mourning, the owner shut me down, saying that the appliance garage is obviously a SA circuit.

He is technically, by the NEC, wrong.

He told me to put the hood on the lighting circuit.

If the hood is on a receptacle, by the 2005, that is also wrong.

I don't think an appliance garage is a SA curcuit becase the receptacles are concealed within the garage. Am I wrong?

Technically, you are right.

Okay, there two ways of looking at this. The NEC, and the "real world."

According to the NEC, the section that Dillon posted, is that the appliance garage receptacles cannot be considered as meeting the spacing requirements for the countertop beside it. So inside the appliance garage (or AG for short, here) is not countertop space.

Therefore, feeding that outlet with an SA circuit is illegal. According to 210.52(B)(1), the SA circuits are for meeting wall space codes, and counter space codes. A receptacle inside a cabinet is not serving counter or wall spaces.

In reality, the receptacle inside that appliance garage is doing exactly what the SA circuits are to do: powering small kitchen appliances. I believe that for the most part, this fact is appreciated and understood by AHJ's. (I hope, cause I have a final coming up soon! )

I want to go the hood first, then to the appliance garage. Is this illegal.

It is illegal if the hood is cord-and-plug connected and inspected under the 2005 NEC.

[ September 24, 2005, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Originally posted by georgestolz:

Okay, there two ways of looking at this. The NEC, and the "real world."

According to the NEC, the section that Dillon posted, is that the appliance garage receptacles cannot be considered as meeting the spacing requirements for the countertop beside it. So inside the appliance garage (or AG for short, here) is not countertop space.

Therefore, feeding that outlet with an SA circuit is illegal. According to 210.52(B)(1), the SA circuits are for meeting wall space codes, and counter space codes. A receptacle inside a cabinet is not serving counter or wall spaces.

I knew, I should have let this thread pass me by..

*illegal to count as SA circuit,not so fast here..

210.52(B)Receptacle outlet served.
(1)In the kitchen,pantry,breakfast room,dinning room, or simular area of a dwelling unit,the two or more 20-ampere SA branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets *covered by 210.52(A),* all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C) and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

*forgive me for skipping typing the Exceptions of 1 & 2.

210.52(C)(5)-Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appliances fasten in place,appliance garages,sinks,or rangetops as covered in 210.52(C)(1),Exception,or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered as required outlets*exceptions to (5)
*if you can not comply in this exceptions,does this mean if you install receptacle outlet in *appliance garage (which is not required), will this relieve you of the responsibility of the SA circuit requirement of this outlet,if excluded from the required counter wall space?

..Nope..I don't believe it relieves you of the SA circuit requirement.

[ September 24, 2005, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]

 

[sparky_magoo]

Re: Kitchen circuits

This house is under thee 1999 code cycle. I am going to have to rethink the whole house. It has a 40 position commercial panel (22" wide) with three sub-panels. The main is located on an exterior kitchen wall. I was panel O.K. when I layed out the house. With all of the additions, I now need forty-five breaker positions. The owner is not going to give me another sub-panel, so I am going to have to compress and delete circuits. I think the owner realized yesterday that this house should have had a service larger than 200 amps.

BTW I went on a service call last week to a residence my company did with a 800 amp three phase service and a second 200 amp three phase service in an underground vault to power the pumps for the water fall. I have never seen that much "juice" in a house before.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Kitchen circuits

If you're under the '99, you can put the hood on with the appliance garage receptacle. The "individual branch circuit" requirement is new to the 2005 NEC.

For fun, put a GFCI inside the garage.

Essentially, you can reduce the number of circuits you have. You just must adhere to the requirements of 210.52, which force you to pull funny. Funny doesn't necessarily mean more circuits. Just a lot of hopping and skipping for no obvious reason.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Originally posted by dillon3c:
illegal to count as SA circuit,not so fast here..

210.52(B)(1) states that SA circuits shall supply walls, counters and the fridge.

210.52(B)(2) states that the SA's shall serve nothing else.

A receptacle inside an appliance garage is something else, regardless of it's intended function. This section cares more about placement than function.

 

[iwire]

Re: Kitchen circuits

George, we are thinking alike today.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Dillon wrote in a PM:
Well george,
in your own post,you have defined that intent of this outlet in the appliance garage,is for powering the appliances, and it being its only intent.

Therefore, must be a SA circuit,and apply to the such.

Our general perception of "small appliance branch circuit" doesn't change the NEC's definitions and requirements of it.

210.11, 210.52(B), (C), etc, lay out the rules and definitions. Despite us knowing that the SA circuit would be ideal inside the appliance garage, it is technically not permitted to be present there.

IMO.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Bob:

 

[iwire]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Dillon I agree with George, that outlet in the 'garage' is not required by either 210.52(A) or (C). As it is not required by 210.52(A) or (C), 210.52(B)(2) prohibits the SABC from feeding it.

If I keep a microwave in my living room that does not mean my living room circuit can be part of the SABC.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Kitchen circuits

I believe that the function of this added device,though not required to be installed in this location,will serve the purpose of suppying power for the countertop small appliance.

If you so choose to install this device in this location..It will not be exempt, from the SA requirement.

Taking you back to 210.52(c)(5)
Exception to (5):To comply with the conditions specified in (1)or (2)

* if this exception is used , it will as outlined comply with SA circuit requirements.

My argument: If I can't comply with the requirements of Exception to (5) due to whatever circumstances, and so choose to install what is not required in place of, for the sole purpose of powering the appliances in this appliance garage...

Will this relieve me of the SA circuit requirement?

[ September 24, 2005, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Kitchen circuits

First let me say I am strictly talking code requirements, I might be inclined to put this on the SABC and forget about it.

Originally posted by dillon3c:
I believe that the function of this added device,though not required to be installed in this location,will serve the purpose of supplying power for the countertop small appliance.

I agree that will be this outlets function.

That fact does not change anything in my mind that garage outlet is not Wall Counter Space, Island Counter Space or Peninsular Counter Space.

At best it is 'garage counter space'.

Let me ask this, if I had a 40" long counter with a 20" garage located in the middle would you say I could install one outlet in that garage to serve the whole counter?

It either serves the counter or it doesn't, can't have it both ways.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Originally posted by iwire:


Let me ask this, if I had a 40" long counter with a 20" garage located in the middle would you say I could install one outlet in that garage to serve the whole counter?

(grin'in)

No,not saying that at all.

Its just not, in requirement to be there.

But,if you so choose to install,more than required, for the purpose

*does it relieve you of the requirement,(useing lightly) of the intent?

playing devils advocate

[ September 24, 2005, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Kitchen circuits

210.52 (B) & (C) of both the 2002 and 2005 cycles of the NEC mandates the placement of the receptacles and the circuits required for the kitchen countertops as outlined below.

2002 and 2005 as there was no change in the wording:

210.52 (B) (3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements. Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits,

210.52 (C) (1) Wall Counter Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall counter space that is 300 mm (12 in.) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space.

210.52 (C) (4) Separate Spaces. Countertop spaces separated by range tops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as separate countertop spaces in applying the requirements of 210.52(C)(1), (2), and (3).

210.52 (C) (5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be located above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above, the countertop. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages, or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered as these required outlets.

We are clearly told in (B)(3) that we are required to install no fewer than two small appliance CIRCUITS for the counter tops.

We are given the spacing of RECEPTACLES in (C) (1)

We are told about separate spaces for RECEPTACLES in (C) (4)

In (C) (5) the location of these RECEPTACLES is outlined and it is here that we are told that any receptacle that is less than 20 inches above the countertop is a countertop receptacle.
We are also told that RECEPTACLES rendered inaccessible by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages, or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered as those required RECEPTACLES.
Nowhere do I see nor can I find relief for the CIRCUITS.

Therefore the receptacle that are inside an appliance garage if it is on a counter top and less than 20 inches above it WILL be required to be on the small appliance circuit!