Kitchen circuits

[iwire]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Originally posted by georgestolz:
I'll bear this in mind the next house I wire in Nort Dekoota, doncha know.

Golly ya don'a hav to git all uppity.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Okay gentlemen I will quit stirring.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Kitchen circuits

If we can do nine more post it will have made it to fifty.


edited to change the nine to eight
:roll:

edited to change the eight to seven


[ September 24, 2005, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Darn tootin! We'll be callin' that seven to go, then!

 

[iwire]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Originally posted by georgestolz:
[Funny, I watched Fargo just last night.

Say Lou, didya hear the one about the guy who couldn't afford personalized plate so he went and changed his name to J3L2404?


Yah, that's a good one.

 

[normbac]

Re: Kitchen circuits

It all started one summer day granny was doing dishes little johnny sitting on the counter waiting for his sangwich accidentally knocked the toaster into the sink full of water, hence granny fried. Then the birth of the gfi near all sinks. little johnny grew up, and remebering the accident made sure he piled all appliances next to the sink for gfi protection. Realizing the hazardous situation nec decided gfi outlets should be spaced along the counter. So it was written, and confusion set in. P.S. would granny had been able to plug her toaster in the garage outlet from the sink?

[ September 24, 2005, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: normbac ]

 

[sparky_magoo]

Re: Kitchen circuits

In the photos JW posted, I see counter top space in front of the AP's. Why wouldn't SA receptacles have to serve that area if it is twelve inches deep.

Also if some of us agree that AP's are not part of SA ckt.s, then it would be OK to plug in an under cab. into one of the AP recetacles. Wouldn't it?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Kitchen circuits

looking for four more post

edited two more

[ September 24, 2005, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Originally posted by sparky_magoo:

Also if some of us agree that AP's are not part of SA ckt.s, then it would be OK to plug in an under cab. into one of the AP recetacles. Wouldn't it?

No

 

[sparky_magoo]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Why not? Per 2005 code, the AP receptacle is not part of the SA ckt. This said, why couldn't I install an undercab in an AP and plug it into the AP recetacle. Let's say that the HO wants the AP illuminated inexpensively.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Well I do believe that I have used the code to prove that the appliance garage if on a countertop is required to be supplied by the small appliance circuit here.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Kitchen circuits

I made the BIG 50 post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

smileys jumping up and down

smileys tooting party horns

fire works in the back ground

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Originally posted by sparky_magoo:
In the photos JW posted, I see counter top space in front of the AP's. Why wouldn't SA receptacles have to serve that area if it is twelve inches deep.

Where do you see the 12" deep specification?

Where do you see a wall behind those counter spaces? I see cabinet doors.

Also if some of us agree that AP's are not part of SA ckt.s, then it would be OK to plug in an under cab. into one of the AP recetacles. Wouldn't it?

IMHO, I believe it is legal to plug an UC light into an actual SA receptacle. Read the 19 page bloodletting to see everybody's opinion on this.
Mike (JW) disagrees with me. So him arguing about it again will not accomplish much.

 

[sparky_magoo]

Re: Kitchen circuits

I stongly agree it's OK to plug an under cab into a SA ckt. In the 19 page bloodbath, no one was able to show where the code prohibited this. I just threw the question out there to stir the pot.

I just read 210.52 C 1 and I see the reference to wall counter spaces. I stand corrected.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Kitchen circuits

What goes on the wall counter space that is 12 in. or wider?



Edited to ask:

210.52 (B)(1) says that what shall serve all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C)?


[ September 24, 2005, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[sparky_magoo]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Strike the 12' references from me. I was being a retard. I should have read the book before posting.

[ September 24, 2005, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: sparky_magoo ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Mike, (C)(5) explicitly states that receptacles inside appliance garages cannot be considered the required receptacle outlets to serve countertop space. How can you percieve that the countertop in front of these garages can be served from inside the garage, in spite of this?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Kitchen circuits

George you are talking receptacles and I am talking circuits these are two different things.

{QUOTE] 210.52 (B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment. [/QUOTE]

According to the rules of English (and I know you know these) the comma ends one thought and begins another. The rule 210.52 (B)(1) could be read like this as it would pertain to countertops. (1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C),


You are saying that a receptacle rendered inaccessible by the appliance garage does not count and I agree.

I am saying that any receptacle that is no more than 20 inches above or more than 12 inches below the top of that counter is required to be protected by the small appliance circuit no matter where you place it.

To carry this conversation a step future, should the entire countertop be enclosed with an appliance garage then I wound contend that receptacles would be required to be installed to serve the counter top by some other means.

 

[iwire]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Mike you love to make things complicated. [/b][/quote]And I would say you do not have a code section to stand on for that.

[ September 25, 2005, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Kitchen circuits

Actually Mike I can see any counter against a wall as wall counter space even if it is all cabinets.

But I also see that as always 210.52 is a jumbled mess that can be read many ways.

I think we tend to get carried away here, Georges thought that fancy kitchens take care of themselves is IMO very true. Few people will build a showpiece kitchen without outlets.

Keep in mind that the NEC will allow accept one single receptacle on an island or peninsular no matter what the size.

If the island or peninsular is large will that one single receptacle be adequate?

Heck no but it meets code.

IMO we have forgotten that the NEC is not a design specification but a safety code.

IMO people should be able to build their own kitchens without any receptacles if that is what they want.

[ September 25, 2005, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]