KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

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csayre

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Would the kitchen counter space requirement for receptacles of one every 24 in. apply to a kitchen in a fire station? The fire station currently does not have any one sleeping there at night right know but might in the future.

[ January 01, 2004, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: csayre ]
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

I think it would and as rhe spacing goes from what I can determine ,,If you place a small appliance anywhere on the countertop with a 24 inch cord it should reach an outlet.. and a rec. is required anywhere there is at least twelve inches of countertop but I am not a professional as these guys here will do a much better job of it Have agreat day"
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

I can't see where the dwelling kitchen rule applies. It does make sense to wire it that way though. It's basically the same type of application.
It may depend on your HAJ. You say "currently" no one sleeps there. The provisions may be there and your AHJ may consider the area a dwelling unit area of a non-residential building. Look at the definition of "dwelling unit". It can easily fit the description of a fire station.

Also it's not every 24" like ricoh stated. It's written the same as the 6' rule in rooms. Kitchens; anything over 12" and every 4'.
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

It's every 4ft max, 2ft from the edge of a counter, or a break in the counter. A break in the counter would be the sink, range, refrigerator, ect. You have to be able to set an appliance anywhere on the counter and have a receptacle in one direction or the other no more than two feet away.
 
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I agree with speedy if the provisions for sleeping are there it is a dwelling unit, as he said look at article 100 for dwelling unit.

From a personal point of view how many more outlets are we talking about 3, 4, 6?

If it is a counter for cooking do the firefighters a favor and put the darn outlets in.

It would look real bad to have these guys having to use plug strips in a brand new station. :mad:
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Dwelling Unit.
One or more rooms for the use of one or more persons as a housekeeping unit with space for eating, living, and sleeping, and permanent provisions for cooking and sanitation.

I think the definition of dwelling applies
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Wayne that may be true, but that would only mandate GFCIs nothing about spacing or quantity.

[ January 01, 2004, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

It all comes down to if it is a dwelling or isn't.Seem to meet everything.It walks like a duck,talks like its a duck.
Is the real problem over who is paying for them ?
They most likely will need them at times.I see crockpots,coffee makers,toasters.My thinking is not only the 2 circuits and 48 inch rules, but maybe a bit more.How many firepersons might be forced to live there for a few days at a time?
Would you rather call this a commercial kitchen?
Then meet all those requirements.Let me guess, the real problem is they were not on the print
and someone signed there name to meet all codes for xxxx$$$
Try it this way,What is it called on the print ?

[ January 01, 2004, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

I do not know your area. Here the approved print, in a commercial application, becomes what is and is not allowed.

Safety excluded.

Mike P.
 
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Here if the room said den or office, or computer room ,it is just that.Even if it looks just like a carbon copy of another room next to it labeled bedroom.
Only way i see them getting out of this is if that area says snack bar or something.But does seem like it is indeed a kitchen.
 
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I would put them in. If they were using power strips or extension cords and had a fire who would they call?
 
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If they call it a dwelling unit kitchen, it will follow those rules, if they call it other than a dwelling unit, and they are following the 2002 NEC, than all of the 125 volt 15 and 20 amp receptacles will be required to be GFCI protected as per 210.8(B).


Pierre
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

That was my opinion too.
Just because a house is empty does not mean it is not a house.Or a single man buys a house and eats all his food out.It is a kitchen used or not.
 
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I must beg leave to disagree. A bed does not a dwelling unit make. Nor does a bed and a stove.

I think the fire station fails to meet the definition of a ?dwelling unit,? by virtue of it not have the character of a ?housekeeping unit.? No person lives there. No person goes there and says that he or she is ?at home.?

Rather, a fire station is a place of business, a commercial facility. Men and women go there to work, and are paid for working there. The work sometimes involves being at the station (e.g., to conduct training, to fill out reports, and to clean and maintain their equipment). The nature of their job requires them to have the ability to sleep at the work place, since they have 24-hour duty shifts, and since they may be called upon to respond to a fire with but a moment?s notice. The nature of their job also requires that they have the ability to prepare and serve food at their work place. But after the work shift is over, they go to their respective dwelling units, to be with their families, and to conduct their housekeeping activities there.

I will agree that the fact that nobody is sleeping in a bed would not turn a dwelling unit into a commercial facility. But I submit that the fact that someone sleeps in a bed, and gets up to cook breakfast, does not turn a commercial facility into a dwelling unit.
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

For reality purposes that firestation is his home for a few days at a time.Would we allow a timeshare townhouse to not call it a kitchen because i only use it for one week and its not my home.Only use it while we are playing for that week,so its commercial?
The chances are that some food is cooked every day at this station,and some tv is watched,a shower,and sleep.Come on this is living even if they are getting paid.
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Charlie I do not think anyone calls a hotel suite with a kitchen "home" but I believe the code considerer's it a dwelling unit.

How about a school dormitory, not a "home" but certainly a dwelling unit.

From the handbook under the definition of dwelling unit.
For example, the motel or hotel room illustrated in Exhibit 100.7 clearly meets the definition because it has eating, living, and sleeping space and permanent areas for cooking and sanitation.
Click to expand...
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Of course it is a dwelling unit.

It is really great to see how much of a difference people will interpet things.

John
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Hi Guys,

The original question has too many distracting details. It's kind of like the "poorly worded" test question we get here!

It matters not that it is a fire station or a dwelling unit. What matters is if it is a kitchen!
 
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