KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

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Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Might add this ,should the county or local AHJ not require it or anything else to comply fully with the codes they adopted they can find them self being sued.They can not deside that you don't need something that nec required
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Originally posted by speedypetey:I also disagree with the fire station not having housekeeping facilities. If you have the provisions for people to sleep, eat and relax, even if for a day at a time, I feel this fulfills the description of a dwelling unit.
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Please allow me to try to be clear about two things. Thing 1 is that the NEC gives the minimums for safety, and that good engineering practice might call for more than the NEC minimums. Thing 2 is that the NEC definition of dwelling unit does not say that the facility must have ?housekeeping facilities.? It says that the facility must be constructed with the intent that it be used as a ?housekeeping unit.? A fire station is a work place, and is not intended to be used as a "housekeeping unit." Therefore, it is not a ?dwelling unit,? as defined by the NEC. Chapter closed. Now let's go about the business of giving the facility the design features (e.g., receptacles) that we think the users might like. But let's do it as design enhancements, not for code compliance.

Aside to Ryan_618: Many thanks for your support. But I was not trying to speak like Yoda. It was a play on the line, ?Stone walls do not a prison make, nor iron bars a cage.? I just looked it up using a Google search. It is from a poem, ?To Althea: From Prison,? by the seventeenth-century English poet Richard Lovelace.
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Charlie, what is the definition of a "housekeeping unit"

And how is a motel room a housekeeping unit and a fire station is not? :confused:

I see the primary requirements as space for eating, living, and sleeping, and permanent provisions for cooking and sanitation.

It still is going to be up to the AHJ and not you and me.
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Merriam-Webster Online
Main Entry: house?keep?ing
Pronunciation: -pi[ng]
Function: noun
Date: 1550

1 : the management of a house and home affairs

2 : the care and management of property and the provision of equipment and services (as for an industrial organization)

3 : the routine tasks that must be done in order for a system to function or to function efficiently
Click to expand...
Edit: Fixed Bad Link

[ January 06, 2004, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Guys come on we can't use webster def.
We are using NEC and must stay there.
ARTICLE 100 IS DEFINITIONS
Read DWELLING UNIT it says nothing about intent
This firestation meets each and every item.
1 one or more rooms = yes
2 for use of 1 or more people = yes
3 as a housekeeping unit =yes
4 space for eating =yes
5 living =yes
6permanent provisions for cooking =yes
7 sanitation =yes
How much easier can it be,
This is a DWELLING UNIT as for NEC
Now that we have a dwelling unit we must wire it as one.
It has a kitchen or similar room
This is black and white ,no gray print
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Jim when the NEC does not provide a definition of it's own where else do you turn? :)
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Bob ,just why do you need a def.for "Housekeeping Unit
210.52 didn't say ""Housekeeping Unit" it said DWELLING UNIT RECEPTACLE OUTLETS so the def you need is for dwelling unit not housekeeping
If a def. is not in 100 then you would be able to use websters
If websters was good enough then the woulda never printed 100
They wrote 100 because some names needed to be defined to there intent
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Jim the only reason I want a definition for house keeping unit is that is the only part of the dwelling unit definition that is questionable for a fire station. (at least the one described in the opening posts)

I have a lot of respect for Charlie and he brings up a good point about the housekeeping unit requirement.

[ January 06, 2004, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Originally posted by jimwalker:ARTICLE 100 . . . says nothing about intent.
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Yes it does, even if it does not include the word ?intent.? I quote (bold and all-caps emphasis is mine): ?One or more rooms FOR THE USE of one or more persons AS A HOUSEKEEPING UNIT?.How do I distinguish a fire station from a motel? One is a work place, and the other is a place where people go to live for one or more nights.
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Ok i see where your going.
For lack of nec defining housekeeping we would need websters.Do you not think its housekeeping just because of the lenght of stay ?Will admit that they might at max stay 3 days but are replaced by the next shift.Is this not there home away from home?
NEC is good at this, they use words that create questions.They use lawyer type words and when we get done reading what they say we walk away with more questions than we started with.
In this case they used the word housekeeping to define dwelling .What words will webster use to define housekeeping? Let me guess (dwelling ?)and probably a few more.Then we start with those words.May never get thru.
Let me stir this pot with these added ideas.
My wife use to work for a motel cleaning rooms,guess what they called her position?
HOUSEKEEPING!!!!!!
Now what and were do we go.
GOLDTSTEIN,GOLDSTEIN AND WEIBERITS
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Jim,
What words will webster use to define housekeeping? Let me guess (dwelling ?)and probably a few more.
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you need to read the other posts in the thread.
Originally posted by iwire:
Merriam-Webster Online
Main Entry: house?keep?ing
Pronunciation: -pi[ng]
Function: noun
Date: 1550

1 : the management of a house and home affairs

2 : the care and management of property and the provision of equipment and services (as for an industrial organization)

3 : the routine tasks that must be done in order for a system to function or to function efficiently
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
(note the absence of the word "dwelling")

Roger

[ January 06, 2004, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Thanks Roger for the free dictionary.
Ok so now what and were do we go.I read it and still not sure what we have.
How about this all of us show up sat morning and wire them in a few extra receptacles.Nothing short of a law suit could win this battle.
Sure am glad we have our code book to exsplain things LOL.
The answer depends on the inspector and if he is fighting with his wife ,has hangover,or his last day before 2 week vacation.
For years i have always tried to have friday inspections and never a monday.There mood has a lot to do with stuff like this.Everyone is human and cant wait till friday night.
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Years ago this industry for the average electrician was a less complicated industry. Technology and litigation have changed and the NEC is evolving to it/with it.
The NEC would require a library if it was written to keep all types happy, so instead it is technical and in 'legalese' language. This is how the book can actually remain as short as it is, remember that lawyers, insurance and other types read this document as much if not more than electricians.
This does not mean that there are not mistakes, there are. But just look at this thread and tell me how you would fix it to make all who are responding here agree - not too easy - now take this example and broaden it to the whole country. In my estimation it is a huge feat. The CMPs welcome all the help that anyone is willing to present.
To help one understand some of what is not actually written in the NEC (intent), There are the ROPs and ROCs. Take a look in some of these and you will not only have a better idea of the intent, but some of the history of the NEC which also helps in one's understanding.

I think Charlie has a good grasp on the 'intent'.

Pierre
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Pierre you are so right... Years ago it was so much easier to do our jobs but frivolous lawsuits and insurance companys have brought us to this a dictionary to do electrical work.If you COOK in it its a kitchen !!! If there are people sleeping there then it is a dwelling unit.So all applicable
NEC articles apply,Or maybe we can call it a guest room ?????Since these people that stay there do not have it as there abode,well that opens a whole new thread,Ok Jim I got the spoon my turn to stir LOL LOL LOL
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

OK I have it. We need a new definition for "dwelling" And here it is:

Dwelling Unit.
A building with One or more rooms for the use by a person or a family as a permanent resident or a homestead. A housekeeping unit with space for eating, living, and sleeping, and permanent provisions for cooking and sanitation.

How about it do I see a code change in the making LOL :D
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Wayne
What happens when one rents the 'building' to a group of college kids? Someone may say that is not a family, so it is not a dwelling? Do you see how easy it is to twist what one is doing. The intent is important as well. That is not always easy to decipher, there will always be areas that an argument can be started by someone. As a matter of fact, the new definition of kitchen that is close to being accepted is in my mind not well defined.

Pierre
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Whatever you do, be consistant. If you call a fire station a dwelling make sure you add all the other required outlets. (any wall 2' or more in width, no point in wall space more than 6' from recep., etc.)
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Originally posted by jimwalker: Do you not think its housekeeping just because of the length of stay?
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No. I think that it is not housekeeping because the people go there to perform work for which they are paid. I recognize that the motel at which your wife worked also meets the description of a ?place where people go to perform work for which they are paid.? The difference is that the function of a motel is to provide a place for people who are willing to pay for a place to sleep, and in some cases, to stay for an extended period.

Fire Station = Work place at which the employees sometimes sleep.

Motel = Living quarters that employs people to care for the facility.
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

So because they get paid, doing the same type of cooking changes something.
Try this logic.I build a small house for a man that lives on my property to stay as a guard to watch my ranch.I pay him so the kitchen is exempt!!!!
What does pay have to do with safety?

[ January 08, 2004, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
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