kitchen devices

[kc_architects]

can an open kitchen bar with a 30 inch sink in the center have a duplex device at each end in end walls and satisfy the device per every two feet of countertop requirement?

 

[barbeer]

See 210.52 for spacing kit. countertops

 

[charlie b]

I am not certain what you mean by ?at each end in end walls.? But it sounds like you mean that the receptacles won?t be on the wall behind the countertop, but rather on the side of the cabinet at each end of the bar. If that is what you mean, I?m afraid the answer is no.

But let?s be clear. It is important to know whether there is, in fact, a wall behind the bar. A kitchen island has no walls above its countertop. A peninsula will have a wall behind one side. Normally, kitchen counters will touch at least two, if not three walls. What about your bar? If there is a wall behind it, and if the wall is at least 12 inches wide, then there must be receptacles in the wall itself.

There is an option to place receptacles in the bottom of the cabinet above the countertop. That is only OK if the space between the counter and the bottom of the cabinet is no more than 20 inches.

 

[George Stolz]

KC, thanks for posting this publicly.

Let me add what KC wrote me in a PM this morning:

I have an eight foot long countertop with a 30 inch sink in the middle and an overhang on the back for an eating bar. I have an end wall at each end. Will a duplex device at each end satisfy the two foot rule.

The overhang on the back for an eating bar makes this a very difficult predicament.

This thing resembles an island, but has some wall counter space on each. Would either end be a peninsula, given the sink in the center? If so, then each peninsula would require one.

How much room is there behind the sink?

 

[stickboy1375]

I don't believe this to be a peninsula because the counter does not connect to another counter... How deep is the counter overhang? I believe this to be a Island so the following must be met...


(2) Island Countertop Space. One receptacle outlet must be installed at each island countertop space with a long dimension of 2 ft or greater, and a short dimension of 1 ft or greater. When breaks occur in countertop spaces for appliances, sinks, etc., and the width of the counter space behind the appliance or sink is less than 1 ft, each countertop space is considered as a separate island for determining receptacle placement [210.52(C)(4)]. Figure 210-13

 

[George Stolz]

But I thought islands have no wall counter space? This counter space does have walls, at either end.

I've whipped out the first doodle I've ever done on a PC, this is what I visualize this as:

If it's an island, it only needs one receptacle, either column would work.

If it's a "wall counter space" then the columns are too far from the sink, but with the overhang installing another receptacle closer to the sink would be close to impossible. But then again, if that 9 inches in question were considered a "peninsula", then it would be too small to call for a receptacle, wouldn't it?

I think most inspectors would accept this as a wall counter space with just a receptacle on each column, IMO. 9 inches is forgiveable, IMO.

I'd design this with quad receptacle outlets at each column if it were my house, just as a design choice.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

But I thought islands have no wall counter space? This counter space does have walls, at either end.

Where does it say an island cannot have walls. As long as the unit is stand alone I would consider it an island.

 

[George Stolz]

Where does it say an island cannot have walls.

It doesn't, but isn't that what makes it an island?

As long as the unit is stand alone I would consider it an island.

What constitutes standing alone?

 

[iwire]

Where does it say an island cannot have walls. As long as the unit is stand alone I would consider it an island.

If it is attached to a wall it is not an island

Main Entry: 1is?land
Pronunciation: 'I-l&nd
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: alteration (influenced by Anglo-French isle) of earlier iland, from Middle English, from Old English Igland (akin to Old Norse eyland), from Ig island (akin to Old English Ea river, Latin aqua water) + land land
1 : a tract of land surrounded by water and smaller than a continent
2 : something resembling an island especially in its isolated or surrounded position: as a : a usually raised area within a thoroughfare, parking lot, or driveway used especially to separate or direct traffic b : a superstructure on the deck of a ship (as an aircraft carrier) c : a kitchen counter that is approachable from all sides3 : an isolated group or area; especially : an isolated ethnological group

 

[Dennis Alwon]

What constitutes standing alone?

Obviously there will be some situation where it would be very hard to define an island. Suppose there was a typical island 6 feet long in the middle of the kitchen. If you put a 4' high wall around three sides of it to make a sitting area on the opposite side of the coumter. Is this still an island? In this scenario I would be able to put outlets easily in the wall and would install them according to article 210.52. But would you have to??? Is this an island???

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If it is attached to a wall it is not an island

I disagree. If the wall is out in the middle of the kitchen attached to the "island" and that wall is only 4' high I must beg to differ.

 

[iwire]

Suppose there was a typical island 6 feet long in the middle of the kitchen. If you put a 4' high wall around three sides of it to make a sitting area on the opposite side of the coumter. Is this still an island? In this scenario I would be able to put outlets easily in the wall and would install them according to article 210.52. But would you have to??? Is this an island???

The 'walls' do not extend to the ceiling?

If not IMO this is still an island.

Main Entry: 1wall
Pronunciation: 'wol
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English weall; akin to Middle High German wall; both from Latin vallum rampart, from vallus stake, palisade; perhaps akin to Old Norse volr staff -- more at WALE
1 a : a high thick masonry structure forming a long rampart or an enclosure chiefly for defense -- often used in plural b : a masonry fence around a garden, park, or estate c : a structure that serves to hold back pressure (as of water or sliding earth)
2 : one of the sides of a room or building connecting floor and ceiling or foundation and roof3 : the side of a footpath next to buildings
4 : an extreme or desperate position or a state of defeat, failure, or ruin <the surrounded troops had their backs against the wall> <small companies driven to the wall>
5 : a material layer enclosing space <the wall of a container> <heart walls>
6 : something resembling a wall (as in appearance, function, or effect); especially : something that acts as a barrier or defense <a wall of reserve> <tariff wall>
- wall-like /'wol-"lIk/ adjective
- off the wall slang : CRAZY <the plan was off the wall>
- up the wall slang : into a state of intense agitation, annoyance, or frustration <the noise drove me up the wall>

 

[iwire]

I disagree. If the wall is out in the middle of the kitchen attached to the "island" and that wall is only 4' high I must beg to differ.

A 4' tall partition does not meet the common definition of wall.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

A 4' tall partition does not meet the common definition of wall.

A 4' wall is commonly referred to as a knee wall but I don't want to dispute that issue. My point is if a 4'wall on either side of an "island" is acceptable to have it wired by nec according to the rules for an island then what difference does extending the knee wall up to the ceiling make. I know-- it's not an island anymore but wy would there be a need for more receptacles because of a height difference in a wall. Do you see my point. The code doesn't always see the obvious. If 2 outlets are good enough if the wall is 4' tall then it should be acceptable if the wall is 8' tall.

 

[iwire]

Dennis I know that carpenters call it a knee wall.:smile:

I also know you will not find knee wall in the NEC. BTW to me a kneewall is free standing, not the side of a cabinet.

But I admit there is a lot in 210.52 open to interpretation.

No one persons answer is correct.:smile:

IMO an island is an island unless it is connected to a wall that runs floor to ceiling, then it is either a peninsular or wall counter depending on the layout.

 

[George Stolz]

So, supposing these columns do run all the way to the ceiling, what would you (both, all) call as an inspector?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

So, supposing these columns do run all the way to the ceiling, what would you (both, all) call as an inspector?

If I were inspecting and this "island" was not attached except for 2 columns to the ceiling then I would call it an island. Obviously this is an AHJ call but since you gave that authority to me that's what I would do. It wouldn't make sense to require more outlets because the wall went to the ceiling. If one can justify only 2 receptacles when there is no wall there then I don't see why more would be needed if the wall went to the ceiling. Now if the wall on the back side went to the ceiling as well as the side walls then I would view this differently. Putting outlets in would also be quite simple at that stage.
sorry I was out and couldn't repond sooner

 

[allenwayne]

I did a condo where one model had a 10 ft counter with no back splash pass thru.sink in the middle.To comply with spacing we installed receptacles in the base cabinets towards the front.They will never be used but it allowed it to pass inspection.Just my 2 cents.

 

[stickboy1375]

That was what I had pictured, just knee walls on each end of the 8' counter... I would still call that an island...

 

[George Stolz]

So, Stick and Dennis, would an outlet on either column suffice, or should there be one on both columns?