kitchen island outlets

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: kitchen island outlets

From Bob
"That said I hate that the NFPA feels they have to make these mundane decisions for homeowners."

I think that the NEC making these decisions relieves the contractor from the choice, which actually relieves him of the liability as well.
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by pierre:
I think that the NEC making these decisions relieves the contractor from the choice, which actually relieves him of the liability as well.
Click to expand...
Well I think that is a poor reason to write code and is not the purpose of the NEC.
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by wyatt:
Maybe we should change the code to require pendant recpticals that hang down over the island.
Click to expand...
I like that Tony, but maybe it would be better if it were worded as an option. :)

Roger
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

I have had similar situations with no room on islands. any room up tight to the counter top for plug mold? I had it pass in the past
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

This has come up for us some on the bigger homes. I have the inspector come out and meet with the owner/GC and see what we have to work with this way I'm not the bad guy wanting to hack up cabinets up that cost as much as my electric work on the whole house (well almost). this has worked well for me. They argue and say put the recptical here and I say yes boss, now where is my check.
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by iwire:
Originally posted by jwelectric:
Where do you see any other danger? :)
Click to expand...
Children grabbing at the cord left dangling pulling a coffee pot etc down on them.

This is why home deep fryers now come with 'break away' cords.
Click to expand...
This would be good enough to draw the attention of the code panel if someone can document one case. It can?t be a case of my friend knows someone who was told that a kid burned itself by pulling on a cord but the records from the hospital that treated the child.

It was the documentation of a trip that mandated the receptacle in the first place.
This rule was brought in with the 1993 cycle of the NEC page 46 section 210-52(c).
All it would have taken is sometime over the past thirteen years is someone document one case of a child being hurt and send it in with their proposal.

Now lets get out the saw and set those drawers in the kitchen floor and get er done.
:)
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

I don't know the author, but this is his story:

I enforced this 210.52 receptacle placement of counter rule allowing a receptacle to be placed within 12? of the counter area on the end of a counter area per that exception found in 210.52.C. Due to my ruling and the electrician using that exception to the rule to meet minimum safety standards set by rules of law in my state a 2 year old child spent months in the hospital burn center to the horror of that child?s parent due to severe burns when a fryer full of hot grease was pulled off the counter top by the child pulling on that cord plugged in to a receptacle installed at eye level right in front of that child?s face. This caused hot grease to pour over that childs face and body.

To me this was a horror I will never again be a part of no matter the cost to me.

http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/homewiringusa/2002/maindwelling/newdwel/newdwelshow.htm
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Well finegan that's tough luck. The rules are the rules.

I have said before this type of code rule deserves flexibility. Unlike much of the code which is black and white this is not. This is more design choice than not.
I also stated that this is not just a "what about the children liberal blather" issue to me. An adult could just as easily snag a cord and bring something down on themselves.

By the way I clicked on the link and you lost me at the fourth line from the top "Make a Donation"
Yeah, I'll pass.

That is as bad as the donut shops and such that have a tip jar on the counter.

[ November 17, 2005, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Finnegan

I have a question about this horror story.
If this was a true story why has this documentation been presented to the Code making panel for review?

I have listened to similar stories for a long time now but when I ask the person telling the story if they knew of this directly the answer is always no.

Mr. Goodrich makes a couple of statements that I have a hard time understanding.

I enforced this 210.52 receptacle placement of counter rule allowing a receptacle to be placed within 12? of the counter area on the end of a counter area per that exception found in 210.52.C.
Click to expand...
This is the job that he is sworn to uphold.

While I have never met the parents or the child mentioned above I will always feel pain in my heart for the rest of my life. I was the inspector who allowed that hazardous condition being installed within 12? below the counter top using that exception to meet the minimum safety standards.
Click to expand...
Here he makes the statement that he never met the parents or the child so any thing he knows about the incident is hearsay.
Then he goes on to state that he allowed this installation which is not at all true. He enforced the letter of the code as he is sworn to uphold with out prejudice.

Being an inspector he should know the procedure in making a proposal and presenting substantiation of the facts for having the code changed. If he didn?t at least the jurisdiction for which he worked would have known.
Why was this not presented? I see no mention of such an incident in the ROPs on a proposal.

I have heard ?what if? said about a lot of different installations of the electrical system. A main panel installed on the outside, ?what if? someone comes along and trips the breaker? The AC disconnect, ?what if? a kid sticks something in there? Arc-fault circuits in the bedroom, ?what if? the breaker trips what will happen to the smoke alarms? Well I have one of my own. ?what if? we play in the middle of the interstate?

The bottom line remains the same. Per the NEC a receptacle is required on an island and will be until at least 2008 so lets quit all this what ifen and get-er-done.

:)
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

What about setting a 20 amp floor box in the location of a portable island,when questioned a simple shrug and i don`t know,maybe a pop corn wagon ????
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Finnegan , I did not read every word , did it say that this or these injuries were caused because the equipment was plugged into a receptacle installed below the counter top(s) of island(s) ?

My advice , put the receptacle(s) in.

If someone gets hurt because they tripped over a cord , because you, a licensed professional , did not install a required receptacle outlet , It will be your a$$ they will sue.

Scott , it won't matter how many horror stories you tell them , it is there in black and white for all to see and not too hard to understand.

Just so you know , below the counter top , I don't like them much myself.
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by roger:
Originally posted by wyatt:
Maybe we should change the code to require pendant recpticals that hang down over the island.
Click to expand...
I like that Tony, but maybe it would be better if it were worded as an option. :)

Roger
Click to expand...
Roger , I'm not sure this would not be allowed now (2005) as long as it is not more than 20" above the counter top?
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

In the court case, the injuries were caused by a fryer plugged into an island receptacle installed in the side of an island. Interestingly, the case did not mention the EC, AHJ or the code. I think there are at least a couple of different discussions going on here ranging from an electrician or inspector protecting himself from liability and whether or not receptacles should be required in islands. From a liability perspective, of course an EC is always better off obeying the code and no one can fairly criticize an AHJ for enforcing the code. Personally, I would support an amendment to make the receptacle optional. I can appreciate the logic brought by whoever said that if there was no island receptacle, people would likely use their fryers or whatever on a counter with a wall mounted receptacle before running an extension cord over to the island. I am interested to hear from anyone whose AHJ's have shown a willingness to overlook this requirement.
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

As you have pointed out in this case it was the manufacture of the deep fryer that got sued. The receptacle meet code so neither the inspector nor the electrician did anything wrong.

I have a problem with the parents of this child in so much as the child was not being watched. Being the father of five I do understand how hard it is to keep up with little ones. My last three were all born in a four year period so there were three little ones to watch after and yes I did give mom a break and did the job myself from time to time.

The same thing could be said about the locks on a car door. I stop and fill the tank with Johnny sitting in his seat in the back seat. I leave the keys in the car on a hot summer afternoon while I fill this tank. Little Johnny locks the door.
Now it is time to have car manufactures remove all door locks to prevent this.

What are we to do with table lamps that have cords close to the floor? Is it possible for little Susie to pull this lamp off the table down on her head and hurt herself?
Do we need to make a proposal to remove all floor receptacles?

Little Bobby got hit in the head with a baseball and is blind in one of his eyes because he was playing baseball. Are we to ban baseball because of this?

The way I see it is that the electrician and the inspector abided by the law when this receptacle was installed and it has no more danger that any other receptacle in the home. It is on the parents to watch and protect their children not the electrician, inspector nor NFPA.

The extra cord does not have to dangle down on the side of the counter and when it is being used the parents should have enough responsibility about their self to keep an eye out when this receptacle is being used.

Again this receptacle is required so instead of all this talk get out the saw and get to work.
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

That is as bad as the donut shops and such that have a tip jar on the counter.
Click to expand...
Yeah Scott. It's getting just as bad down here. Even gas stations are putting out tip cups. I'm going to try putting one out on my next job. I'll let you know how I make out !!!
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by goldstar:
Yeah Scott. It's getting just as bad down here. Even gas stations are putting out tip cups. I'm going to try putting one out on my next job. I'll let you know how I make out !!!
Click to expand...
The look you get when you put your change back into your pocket where it belongs is priceless. :D

Entitlement society :roll:
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by iwire: Children grabbing at the cord left dangling pulling a coffee pot etc down on them. This is why home deep fryers now come with 'break away' cords.
Click to expand...
I bought one of those a few months back. Works great. But I was totally confused by the cord. I had no idea why there was magnet that attached the cord to the cooker. Thanks for pointing this out to me. Makes perfect sense now. :)
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

I emailed Warren Goodrich , the author of the article finnegan linked to
http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/homewiringusa/2002/maindwelling/newdwel/newdwelshow.htm

I asked if he documented the incident and brought it to the attention of the proper CMP and if yes what the response was

This is his reply;


Marc

The subject of the risks and accidents concerning that receptacle you spoke of has been a well documented tug of war for decades. If you check the NEC rules in 210.52 the wording has been changed a minimum of 3 times in the last four code versions. I spoke adamently about the risks caused by that rule at so many pubic meetings and hearings with the editors of the NEC heading the meetings that I am blue in the face with frustration. No I did not add to the list of code change applications that have already been made providing the same documentation as I have. There are records of these type injuries in the emergency response industry such as fire dept and ambulance documented across the nation. Problem is the Code making panels keep saying there is not enough documented accidents caused by this to warrant change in the policy of that rule. In my mind the horror of one accident is too many for me to want to experience again. I have kept up with the Code change apps and the ROPs watching this subject being bounced around almost constantly at each code change process with the same results. Not sure what it will take but some day the Code making panels will see the light. Just hate to think how many more children have to be scarred for life before they start their own investigation to this mistake in the rules.

NEC is a document I am proud of. Considering the life safety subject and knowing the Codes to the level I know them I am proud we have so few errors in such a detailed minimum safety standard. This is my pet rule of horror because of seeing that child and the guilt the mother keeps putting herself through with her thinking if she was just a bit quicker her child would not live a life of such pain and scarring.

I am sick on the subject but others issued the change request well before I would have. Nothing changed. Maybe my strong statements in my web site articles will push enough to get them to look at their own rule for special research. Maybe not but you are one of many many who had a reaction enough to email me. I think my web site has them looking. The code change apps did not good.

Thanks for your concern.

Wg
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

JW I agree with you 100% and then some.When a meal is being prepared especially when there are small children in the home it is up to the parent not the electrician to prevent this from happeneing.I have 3 children one is from 1st marriage he has his own rug rats to deal with and now I have an 8 and 11 year old.They have been taught to stay away from cords cooktops etc.
As far a the NEC I believe they have done their part after that the parent is the AHJ and can allow what they want regardless of the nec and its requirements.
Ask any home owner to cite a code for what they are doing and you`ll get some strange looks
;) The NEC whats that?????
A receptacle on an island is a convienance receptacle.Just as a wall recep. is a convienance
receptacle.15 a /20 a they haven`t a clue it`s a place to get power.GFCI or not same thing a place to get power.Don`t try to educate them that causes more cofusion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top