Kitchen island receptacles

[LarryFine]

Need a few opinions here, please.

On a kitchen island, where there are two side-of-the-cabinet receptacles, one at each end, and either one would suffice by itself, I added a third on the non-kitchen side.

This third receptacle is mounted where stool-perched eaters would sit, and the overhand exceeds 6". Since this receptacle is not required to serve the island, is it still prohibited due to the overhang?

My position is that, as a non-required receptacle (isn't required to supply the island countertop), the 6" restriction doesn't apply to it. In other words, it is a wall receptacle, not a countertop receptacle.

Opinions, please?

 

[frenchelectrican]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Hello Larry ,

I have one question to ask you., this question i feel little stumpped here for a sec. please bear with me in a min.

My position is that, as a non-required receptacle (isn't required to supply the island countertop), the 6" restriction doesn't apply to it. In other words, it is a wall receptacle, not a countertop receptacle.

if that wall receptacle is facing the "dinning room " or any wall is not related to kitchen it have be on seperated circuit like tied to dinning room. but before you start swatting me on this one but i am not sure excat part of NEC saying this is a optional set up other wise the code required for countertop island area only.

[ please do correct me if i am wrong on this one ]

Many thanks

Merci, Marc

 

[infinity]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

The 6" overhang rule is for the receptacle serving the countertop of the island. If the overhang is more than 6" than the receptacle installed under it cannot count as the one required receptacle serving the countertop surface. You still can install one below the overhang as long as the there is another receptacle to serve as the required island receptacle.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

All 3 coud be on that same SA .The side thats on the stool side is part of either the kitchen or dining room/breakfast nook so can share the SA circuit.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

You are not prohibited from installing a receptacle there. You are only prohibited from counting it as the required island receptacle.

There are some who would argue that the back side of an island is wall space and you would have no choice but to install recptacles there anyway(I am not one of those people).

 

[ty]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
You are not prohibited from installing a receptacle there. You are only prohibited from counting it as the required island receptacle.

There are some who would argue that the back side of an island is wall space and you would have no choice but to install recptacles there anyway(I am not one of those people).

Ditto!

 

[JohnE]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

I agree that if you have the required island receptacle, then you are not prohibited from installing one under an overhang.

To me it is similar to installing a floor receptacle in the middle of a floor. You can not count it as a required wall receptacle, but nothing prohibits you from installing it.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by infinity: You still can install one below the overhang as long as the there is another receptacle to serve as the required island receptacle.

Originally posted by electricmanscott: You are not prohibited from installing a receptacle there. You are only prohibited from counting it as the required island receptacle.

Originally posted by j_erickson: I agree that if you have the required island receptacle, then you are not prohibited from installing one under an overhang.

I agree that this is the right way to handle this situation. But may I be allowed to invite to your attention the fact that that is not what the code says? Here is what I mean:
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• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">210.52(C) says that in the kitchen and DR, receptacles for counter spaces shall be installed per (1) through (5).</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">210.52(C)(5) says that the receptacles shall be above the countertop.</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The exception to 210.52(C)(5) says that for islands, the receptacles can be up to 12 inches below the countertop.</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That same exception says that if you are taking advantage of that same exception because of reasons (1) or (2), with reason (2) being the island with no backsplash, then the receptacles shall not be where the countertop overhang exceeds 6 inches.</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nowhere in this sequence is there an option to install a receptacle outlet that does not comply with (C), or with (C)(5), or with that exception. Please note that 90.5(A) is very clear about the meaning of "shall" and "shall not."

 

[Mike03a3]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

<deleted>

[ January 26, 2006, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Mike03a3 ]

 

[bthielen]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

210.52(C) says that in the kitchen and DR, receptacles for counter spaces shall be installed per (1) through (5).

Doesn't this suggest that receptacles that are not installed to service the countertop do not apply?

Bob

 

[jim dungar]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Charlie,
You are correct in what it says "
210.52(C) says that in the kitchen and DR, receptacles for counter spaces..."

But the question is :"is this applicable, as the receptacle is not for the counter". 210.52(B)(3) allows non-counter receptacles.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by bthielen:Doesn't this suggest that receptacles that are not installed to service the countertop do not apply?

The receptacles are for the counter spaces. That is not the same thing as saying they are intended to serve the counter top itself. The "counter space" would include the entire island.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by jim dungar: 210.52(B)(3) allows non-counter receptacles.

That article allows non-counter receptacles to be on the same circuit as counter receptacles. So, yes, it does acknowledge that there may be "non-counter receptacles." It is within other articles that you will find requirements, for example, to install receptacles along the walls (presuming that there is wall space over 24 inches wide in the kitchen). But when you install those other "non-counter" receptacles, you still have to follow the rules that apply to those locations. Similarly, when you install receptacles for the counter spaces, you have to follow the rules that cover receptacles for counter spaces.

 

[romeo]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

I am having trouble posting I hope this is only gets posted once.I may get blasted for this but a receptacle under a countertop extending more than 6" would not pass my inspection.If the NEC does not consider it safe to permit the required receptacle there why would it be safe to have a receptacle there at all.

As Larry said the receptacle is mounted where the stool perched eaters eat and sit.I do not consider a cord plugged in where someone is going to sit safe or practical.Not a good place to plug in a fondue pot,and don't think that some careless person may not do it.

Also I think another reason is when the countertop extends too far it causes the appliance cord to extend further and increasing the danger that the appliance may be pulled to the floor. Just my thoughts romeo

 

[JohnE]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by charlie b:

Originally posted by bthielen:Doesn't this suggest that receptacles that are not installed to service the countertop do not apply?

The receptacles are for the counter spaces. That is not the same thing as saying they are intended to serve the counter top itself. The "counter space" would include the entire island.

The required "receptacle for counter space" on a peninsula or island space is permitted to be mounted not more than 12" below a counter and shall not be located where the countertop extends more than 6" beyond its support space.

This does not prohibit other receptacles from being installed under an overhang.

If it did, then using this logic would prohibit a receptacle say 16" above the floor on the back of an island without an overhang.

While Romeo pointed out that a receptacle under an overhang may be a bad idea, I don't interpret it as being prohibited.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

We are certainly free to do more than the NEC requires. For example, if the NEC requires 3 receptacles on a wall, then we are free to put 5 receptacles on that wall. But anything that we do install, whether it be "the required one" or "an extra one," still has to be installed in accordance with the rules. In general, we don't get to say that that item is the one that is required, and that this other item is the one that is an "extra." Sometimes, the wording in the NEC does give us that choice. This is not one of those times. The wording, as written, and as I described in my first post, does not allow what Larry described.

Now that I have read Romeo's comment, I would like to withdraw what I said at the outset. I no longer think that what Larry initially described should be allowed.

 

[JohnE]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Charlie, where I disagree with you is that receptacles are not prohibited in the described location. "Receptacle outlets for countertop spaces" are prohibited in this location.

Do you feel that a any receptacle is allowed more than 12" below a countertop on an island? By your logic, all receptacles located on an island would need to be no more than 12" below the countertop.

 

[infinity]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Do you feel that a any receptacle is allowed more than 12" below a countertop on an island? By your logic, all receptacles located on an island would need to be no more than 12" below the countertop.

Once you have met the requirement for the receptacle serving the island I don't see why you couldn't put X number of receptacles anywhere else on the island. One receptacle within 12" of the countertop will satisfy the NEC. Another right next to it at 13" would be permitted also.

 

[jim dungar]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Charlie, (your are correct about my previous poor code reference) are you saying that no receptacle can be mounted anywhere on an island unless it meets 210.52(C) requirements?

I believe that if the island is acting as a room divider then it is subject to 210.52(A)(2)(3) and must have a general use receptacle mounted in/on it.

210.52(C)(5) says the location for counter receptacles will be above the counter top. To be mounted below the counter top and still count as a counter receptacle you must meet requirements 1 or 2 of the exception. If the receptacle location does not meet the exception then it is not prohibited but rather it can not be considered a countertop receptacle.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by j_erickson: Charlie, where I disagree with you is that receptacles are not prohibited in the described location. "Receptacle outlets for countertop spaces" are prohibited in this location.

How is the homeowner going to know the difference? If you install a receptacle 12 inches below an 8 inch overhang, the homeowner is not going to read the NEC before plugging something into that receptacle. The homeowner is not going to believe that they can only plug in a floor lamp, vacuum cleaner, or other thing for which the cord hangs down towards the floor. And if the thing being plugged in is a crock pot sitting on the countertop, then there is a real danger that a person sitting at that counter might bump the cord and get a lap full of whatever is cooking.

Originally posted by j_erickson: By your logic, all receptacles located on an island would need to be no more than 12" below the countertop.

It's not my logic. It's the words that presently appear in the NEC. Those words do not say what you want them to. They never do.

Step aside from what you would like to do in this situation. Step aside from any notion that you can add an extra receptacle anywhere you want, so long as you put in the "required one" first. Read the words. Then tell me if you interpret the words differently than I.