Kitchen island receptacles

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by j_erickson:What matters is whether or not the receptacle we've been discussing is prohibited. I don't see any code reference to support your argument.

I cited the relevant code reference, and explained my interpretation of that article, in my first post, at noon on January 26, as shown on page 1 of this thread. I repeated it in my post of January 27, 12:19 pm, on page two of this thread. You are free to disagree that that article says what I said it says. But I'd rather not repeat my position again.

 

[JohnE]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by charlie b:

Originally posted by j_erickson:What matters is whether or not the receptacle we've been discussing is prohibited. I don't see any code reference to support your argument.

I cited the relevant code reference, and explained my interpretation of that article, in my first post, at noon on January 26, as shown on page 1 of this thread. I repeated it in my post of January 27, 12:19 pm, on page two of this thread. You are free to disagree that that article says what I said it says. But I'd rather not repeat my position again.

Thanks for the reminder, but I know exactly what you posted and when. I'll settle on just disagreeing with you. You don't need to repeat anything, I never asked you to. I just feel that you didn't ever support your position properly.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Fair enough. I had though that the following was all the support my argument needed:

210.52(C) has words that apply to all receptacles that serve the counter space. So if you have the required one (or perhaps the required two), and if you add another, then the one you add is still a "receptacle that serves the counter space." Therefore, it must still obey the same rules.

I'm happy to let it rest there.

 

[jim dungar]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

What a great country we live in, where else could you ask 5 people what a standard says and get 6 different answers.

Charlie, I guess my problem is how you are looking at 210.52(A)(2).

210.52(A)(2)(2) does specifically require you to include the fixed panel of a sliding door when determing wall space. 210.52(A)(2)(3) says a counter type room divider must be also be included. I see no relief from these sections.

I then see a seperate section 210.52(C)(5)Exception; that defines the maximum area within which receptacles must be mounted in order to be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(C)(2) and (3).

I see nothing in the code that prohibits receptacles from being installed that are beyond the distances of 12" down and 6" back, as long as 210.52(C)(2) or (3) has been met with at least one receptacle.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by jim dungar: 210.52(A)(2)(2) does specifically require you to include the fixed panel of a sliding door when determining wall space.

No it doesn't. Look again. The word "door" does not appear in that paragraph. It is talking about solid walls, and it is specifically excluding any type of panel (glass or wood or whatever) that slides.

On the other hand, the word "door" (actually "doorways") does appear in 210.52(A)(2)(1).

Originally posted by jim dungar: 210.52(A)(2)(3) says a counter type room divider must be also be included.

For the moment, I will not argue against that point. But I'll not concede it either. I have two problems with the way that article is worded.

One problem is that I don't know what "afforded by" means. Here's an example:
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• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Suppose you have a "Great Room" with a wall 20 feet long, and with doorways at both ends of that wall. You need a minimum of 3 receptacles for that wall. You can put one in the middle, and one 6 feet from either end of the wall.</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But suppose you install a railing that extends (let us say about four feet) into the room from the midpoint of that wall. Build it with fancy dowels and a top rail, but do not use a flat vertical surface that could in any way resemble a wall. You now have a "fixed room divider." My question is this: What is the "space afforded by" that fixed room divider? Is it the space physically occupied by the railing itself? Does that mean that there must be a receptacle on or near the railing (perhaps a floor receptacle)? Many would say "yes." I say "no."</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I submit that the "space afforded by the fixed room divider" could instead mean the 10 foot wide section of wall to the left of the divider, and it is also the 10 foot wide section of wall to the right of the divider. If that is what it means, then those two areas now only need one receptacle each, for a total of two along that whole wall (instead of the original total of three).</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
My other problem with the wording of that article is that it gives only two examples, and they are not representative of what might be included in the rule. Specifically, I would not place a "peninsula" or an "island" in the same set that starts out with "free-standing bar-type counters" and "railings." Others would include them in that set.

That is why I am not conceding that point just yet.

Originally posted by jim dungar: I see nothing in the code that prohibits receptacles from being installed that are beyond the distances of 12" down and 6" back, as long as 210.52(C)(2) or (3) has been met with at least one receptacle.

I do.

210.52(C) says "receptacles shall be installed in accordance with (1) through (5). That means that the rule applies to all receptacles that you plan to install in those areas. That does not give you the option of installing extras in that same area in any location or manner that you wish. If the receptacle is in that area, it must follow the rule.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by charlie b:
Suppose you have a "Great Room" with a wall 20 feet long, and with doorways at both ends of that wall. You need a minimum of 3 receptacles for that wall. You can put one in the middle, and one 6 feet from either end of the wall.

Actually, if you place a receptacle 6' from each end of the wall, they would only be 8' apart; no middle receptacle needed.

[ January 31, 2006, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: LarryFine ]

 

[Mike03a3]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by charlie b:

Originally posted by jim dungar: 210.52(A)(2)(2) does specifically require you to include the fixed panel of a sliding door when determining wall space.

No it doesn't. Look again. The word "door" does not appear in that paragraph. It is talking about solid walls, and it is specifically excluding any type of panel (glass or wood or whatever) that slides.

Charlie: Forgive me for butting in, but why is the fixed panel of a sliding door not a "fixed panel in exterior wall"? Yes, the sliding panel of a sliding door is specifically excluded, but what about the fixed part? Since you can't pass through it, it arguably is not a doorway.

[*]Suppose you have a "Great Room" with a wall 20 feet long, and with doorways at both ends of that wall. You need a minimum of 3 receptacles for that wall. You can put one in the middle, and one 6 feet from either end of the wall.

Why not two? One five feet from either end would suffice, wouldn't it? No point on the 20 ft wall would be more than five feet from a receptacle.

. . . I would not place a "peninsula" or an "island" in the same set that starts out with "free-standing bar-type counters" and "railings." Others would include them in that set.

Why do you think an "island" differs materially from a "free-standing bar-type counter"?

210.52(C) says "receptacles shall be installed in accordance with (1) through (5). That means that the rule applies to all receptacles that you plan to install in those areas. That does not give you the option of installing extras in that same area in any location or manner that you wish. If the receptacle is in that area, it must follow the rule.

Here I think you stand on a bedrock footing. I don't see the "shalls" as allowing any wiggle room.

Mike

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

You're right, of course. That did not lay out the way I wanted.

Let's call it a 26 foot wall. Without the room divider, you need 3 receptacles. But with the divider, you need 2 on either side, for a total of 4.

But I suspect that you don't need one along the railing. The wording can be interpreted as saying that the space that is "afforded by" the railing is actually two spaces: the space along the original wall, on either side of the divider.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by Mike03a3:Charlie: Forgive me for butting in, but . . . .

No forgiveness needed. Thanks for the contribution.

Originally posted by Mike03a3:. . . why is the fixed panel of a sliding door not a "fixed panel in exterior wall"? . . . Since you can't pass through it, it arguably is not a doorway.

But you do buy it as a single unit. You cannot buy the sliding part without also getting the frame in which it slides. The item that "breaks the wall along the floor line" is the entire frame of the door unit.

But more generally, what is a "panel" (in the non-wires sense) anyway? When I see "panel," I think of the wood paneling that covers the walls in my den. But that stuff could not be the sole boundary between inside and outside. On the other hand, I would not call a sheet of glass a "panel." So what does the article mean by a fixed exterior panel? I just don't know.

Originally posted by Mike03a3:Why do you think an "island" differs materially from a "free-standing bar-type counter"?

Purpose and construction. A bar has a countertop, as does an island. There the resemblance ends. A bar will have a thin, flat, vertical support structure (if it is not cantilevered off the wall). An island will have storage cabinets, and perhaps plumbing or cooking equipment. The only thing a bar gives you to work with is its horizontal surface. An island gives you that and more.

 

[throttlebody]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

DOH!

 

[frenchelectrican]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

finally someone show the photo about the " island " repectaile.

i am looking at the photo of it and look like it is little over a foot away from the edge.

I feel that it it little more than the NEC will allow it because most small applanices have short cord there.[ most are 2 foot some are short as 18 inches.]

thanks again for showing the photo there

Merci, Marc

 

[romeo]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

No doubt about it no wording in the NEC prohibits additional receptacles after the required one has been satisfied. But in reality I think that the code making panel should have added that all additional receptacle will comply.

Really guys don't you think that is really what they had in mind but failed to make it clear just as many other sections in the NEC ? romeo

 

[Mike03a3]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by charlie b:

Originally posted by Mike03a3:Why do you think an "island" differs materially from a "free-standing bar-type counter"?

Purpose and construction. A bar has a countertop, as does an island. There the resemblance ends. A bar will have a thin, flat, vertical support structure (if it is not cantilevered off the wall). An island will have storage cabinets, and perhaps plumbing or cooking equipment. The only thing a bar gives you to work with is its horizontal surface. An island gives you that and more.

Ah, we just are envisioning completely different things. Like the English and Americans, we are divided by a common language. I think of a free standing bar as a solid rectangular structure with a countertop, often with a small fridge and/or bar sink. Certainly with some cabinet space for booze, glasses, and misc bar type stuff. In other words, a lot like an island only not in a kitchen.

Mike

 

[throttlebody]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Well, the overhang is 12" all the way around,except in the front, 15" on each side to the cooktop. The counter is a freestanding bar-type and it is separating the nook from the kitchen.

My question. Where to put that required outlet?

[ January 31, 2006, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: throttlebody ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by charlie b:

. . . why is the fixed panel of a sliding door not a "fixed panel in exterior wall"? . . . Since you can't pass through it, it arguably is not a doorway.

But you do buy it as a single unit. You cannot buy the sliding part without also getting the frame in which it slides.

That is walking the tight-rope. The hole in the net below is that you'd expect to see floor receptacles in a glass-walled room (i.e. windows floor to ceiling). Those are bought as single units too. It doesn't wash.

The popular interpretation isn't always the correct one, but it's generally enforced that the wall space begins at the center of a slider - the point at which the fixed panel begins. I agree with and adhere to this interpretation.

Why do you think an "island" differs materially from a "free-standing bar-type counter"?

Purpose and construction.

Elevate that island a few inches and draw a couch behind it. The couch is sitting on the floor of a sunken room, just a few inches.

Is this not a fixed room divider?

IMO, "the space afforded by" is a generalization for space that is not going to be walked through. In these untravelled zones, furniture settles. Lamps. Tables. It's a common practice to install floor outlets in the center of a room, to be concealed under furniture to serve lamps.

I'm cutting back on my smilies - but suffice it to say, I'm pleasantly confused by this discussion. Carry on.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by romeo:
No doubt about it no wording in the NEC prohibits additional receptacles after the required one has been satisfied. But in reality I think that the code making panel should have added that all additional receptacle will comply.

Really guys don't you think that is really what they had in mind but failed to make it clear just as many other sections in the NEC?

No, I really don't. It would have been easy enough to include if they had.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by romeo: No doubt about it no wording in the NEC prohibits additional receptacles after the required one has been satisfied.

I certainly do doubt that. In fact, I assert quite the contrary. The wording in the NEC explicitly forbids adding receptacles that do not comply with the same rules. The wording says "receptacles shall . . . ." It doesn't give any wiggle room for "extras" that do not comply.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by throttlebody:
DOH!

Just to enlighten me, and to extend this thread in the direction of a new record, what does that mean? I've seen it used in several threads.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by Mike03a3:. . . we are divided by a common language.

Very well put! I have said similar things in the past, but never so eloquently.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by throttlebody: My question. Where to put that required outlet?

You put it exactly where it is shown. But then on your way out, you pull the meter. Then you tell the homeowner to call you back, when they have cut the overhang to 6 inches or less, or when they have replaced the countertop with one that is legal.

Or would that be going too far?