Kitchen island receptacles

[jim dungar]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

DOH, made famous by Homer Simpson (also spelled DUH). Say this word out loud while smacking yourselve on the forehead with an open palm.

Charlie, I am still trying to see where the code prohibits any general use receptacle in the vicinity of a dining room or kitchen counter in addition to those required in 210.52(C)(5). The way I read it is; there are general use outlets, dedicated outlets, and required counter space outlets. In fact the words of the last sentence of 210.52(C)(5)acknowledges that non-counter space receptacles may exist when it says "...dedicated space shall not be considered as these REQUIRED outlets."

And as for the room divider providing wall space, I think this would be decided by the building codes/inspector just like whether a spare room is considered a bedroom or a study.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by jim dungar: In fact the words of the last sentence of 210.52(C)(5)acknowledges that non-counter space receptacles may exist when it says "...dedicated space shall not be considered as these REQUIRED outlets."

That sentence is recognizing the existence of receptacles that are rendered non-accessible. There is no similar sentence recognizing the existence of receptacles that serve the counter space, but that are in addition to the "required one(s)," and that therefore do not have to follow the rule about their locations.

My whole reasoning is focused on the notion that the phraseology "all shall" is more restrictive than the phraseology "you need at least one." It boils down to this:
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• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you define the "island counter spaces" to include the entire island, meaning all horizontal and vertical surfaces, then you cannot escape my conclusion.</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you define the "island counter spaces" to include only the horizontal countertop, then I cannot defend my conclusion.</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Try reading through 210.52(C) with that perspective in mind. When you get to the exception to sub-paragraph (5), keep in mind that if an exception to a rule does not apply, then you must fall back to the rule itself.

 

[jim dungar]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

My point is: if the receptacle is not located per 210.52(C)(5) then it cannot be counted as serving the counter space, not that it cannot exist at all.

210.52(C) only says you shall have receptacles for counter spaces. Where does it say that all receptacles mounted in the vicinity of counters (i.e. all verticle surfaces of an island or peninsula) shall be considered as serving the counter space? What about a kitchen counter with no cabinets below it (i.e. a desk), wouldn't the area under it be considered a wall space and require a non-counter receptacle?

210.52(C)(5) says that counter space receptacles shall be mounted not more than 20" above the counter top except for those not more than 12" below and under an over hang not more than 6" deep. Outside of this area (except for physically impaired construction) they do not serve the counter space.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by jim dungar: Where does it say that all receptacles mounted in the vicinity of counters (i.e. all vertical surfaces of an island or peninsula) shall be considered as serving the counter space?

Jim, please look at the two bullet items in my last post. They offer two ways of defining "counter space," a phrase that the NEC itself does not define. Pick one. I am guessing that you would pick the second. I picked the first. That places us at an impasse, and ends the discussion.

Edited to add the following:

Originally posted by jim dungar: My point is: if the receptacle is not located per 210.52(C)(5) then it cannot be counted as serving the counter space, not that it cannot exist at all.

My point is: if the receptacle serves the counter space (as I define in the first bullet of my last post, which is to say if it is on the island at all), then it has to be located per the 210.52(C)(5).

[ February 01, 2006, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: charlie b ]

 

[jim dungar]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Charlie, you are correct that I would chose your bullet #2. Primarily, because I can not find the code substantiation for your bullet #1. Using you reasoning I would not be able to justify a receptacle mounted in a soffit which is more than 20" above the counter or a wall mounted receptacle below a built in desktop, unless I selectively interpert the main rule.

210.52(C)(5) applies to all countertops, not just those on an island or peninsula. This is the default rule on receptacle locations. There is an exception available only for when this rule cannot be met. Exceptions are not used to define the rule.

I agree we disagree, but if we don't keep at it the "green grounding screw" is going to beat us.

 

[throttlebody]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by charlie b:

Originally posted by throttlebody:
DOH!

Just to enlighten me, and to extend this thread in the direction of a new record, what does that mean? I've seen it used in several threads.

Jim got it.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by jim dungar: Charlie, you are correct that I would chose your bullet #2. Primarily, because I can not find the code substantiation for your bullet #1.

It is not a matter of "code substantiation." It is a matter of definition of terms. Absent a formal (Article 100) definition of "counter spaces," we have to fall back on industry standard practice or experience. You and I just picked different definitions.

But just for the sake of discussion, would you concede my statement that a person who accepts the "bullet 1" definition will be compelled by the wording of 210.52(C) to agree with the remainder of my reasoning?

Originally posted by jim dungar: Using you reasoning I would not be able to justify a receptacle mounted in a soffit which is more than 20" above the counter or a wall mounted receptacle below a built in desktop, unless I selectively interpret the main rule.

Not at all. Neither a soffit nor a desk would comprise "counter spaces." On the other hand, the entire island comprises "counter space," or so at least is my view.

Originally posted by jim dungar: 210.52(C)(5) applies to all countertops, not just those on an island or peninsula. This is the default rule on receptacle locations. There is an exception available only for when this rule cannot be met. Exceptions are not used to define the rule.

If you can't meet the exception, then you must follow the rule. In this case, if you want to put the receptacle on the side of the island, and if the reason you want to do that is that the island has no backsplash, then you must follow the 20 inch and 6 inch overhang rules that are within the exception. An overhang that is over 6 inches does not permit you to obey the exception. You must therefore fall back on the original rule, and put the receptacle above the island. That leaves you with no solution, since the absence of a backsplash is the reason you had tried to use the exception in the first place. My conclusion is that you can't have a receptacle below an 8 inch overhang.

Originally posted by jim dungar: I agree we disagree, but if we don't keep at it the "green grounding screw" is going to beat us.

I have been afraid to start reading that thread.

 

[jim dungar]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Charlie, I keep thinking of common installations that are not covered by your reasoning.

From what I can gather, part of your argument could be statewd as: counters with wall space may have receptacles mounted anywhere below them, but all islands and peninsulas cannot because of the exception to 210.52(C)(5).

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by jim dungar:. . . part of your argument could be stated as: counters with wall space may have receptacles mounted anywhere below them, but all islands and peninsulas cannot because of the exception to 210.52(C)(5).

Jim, you have it backwards. You must start with this: 210.52(C)(5) says that ALL receptacles that serve counter spaces must be above the counter, and must be no more than 20 inches above the counter. Any counter that has a wall behind it will have to follow that rule.

Now you come across an island or a peninsula. You see that there is no wall, and not even so much as a backsplash. So you read the exception, and discover that you can put a receptacle up to 12 inches below a counter, so long as the overhang is not over 6 inches. That exception would not apply to the countertops that have walls behind them.

While we're at it, if the island does have a backsplash, then you can't use the exception. You must put the receptacle on the backsplash.

 

[frenchelectrican]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

While we're at it, if the island does have a backsplash, then you can't use the exception. You must put the receptacle on the backsplash.

now what if the backsplash counter top is only 4 inch high you still have to install it ??

Merci , Marc

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by jim dungar: Charlie, I keep thinking of common installations that are not covered by your reasoning.

They don't have to be. My "reasoning" is limited to a very specific case. I have no plans to apply it in a more general manner. It would be a breach of the rules of logical reasoning to attempt to apply it in a more general manner. It would be a fallacious case of "reasoning from the particular to the general."

My views are based on the code's use of "shall" as opposed to "at least one," when it talks about location in 210.52(C)(5). Receptacles shall be above the countertop. There is an exception, but if the overhang is over 6 inches you can't use the exception. So if the overhang is over 6 inches, and if there is no wall or backsplash or other convenient surface above the counter, you can't put a receptacle on that face of the island.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by frenchelectrican: now what if the backsplash counter top is only 4 inch high you still have to install it ??

I read the exception, I conclude that the exception does not apply, and I call for the receptacle to be installed on the backsplash. I don't know how. That's the electrician's job; I'm just the engineer. Perhaps you turn the box sideways.

 

[frenchelectrican]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

now that will be a neat idea to run side way but really i did see few installment use the box in horzontal format.

are we looking in sideways??? :roll:

just kidding with that remark


Merci, Marc

maybe the horzontal box is perfect place to shoot the golf balls in there [ h? h? h? ]

 

[jim dungar]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Agreed, if my island a backsplash the receptacles are to be mounted there per 210.52(C)(5) and the exception is not applicable.
Now, I believe that additional receptacles may be mounted on the sides of the island, because 210.52(C)(5) does not say "ALL shall be located above" nor does it say "shall ONLY be located above".

 

[JohnE]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Charlie, you and I agreed to let it end several days ago. Maybe you and Jim should do the same.

I had to post something to keep us ahead of grounding screws. 93 each and counting!

Without rehashing I agree completely with Jim.

 

[jim dungar]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

This really has become about the screws. And now I feel bad for helping that one along.

If we were sitting in a common room this probably wouldn't have lasted for more than a cup of coffee (or other beverage).

 

[JohnE]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Jim, I was only half serious about the screws. I do completely agree with your views.

If we were having the discussion in a room over a beverage, it would still be going on, as i wouldn't have been able to walk away so easily as I did several days ago.