Kitchen Small Appliance Circuits...

[George Stolz]

First:

Frizbeedog just made poo poo on the rug.

Seriously, buddy, you're killing me. Once or twice, it was mildly amusing, now it's just getting old. :roll:

Would it be a violation to install a switch to control a receptacle serving the kitchen counter?

I read 210.70(1) exception no.1, but this would not be in lieu of the lighting outlet...

No.

210.52(B)(1) requires all receptacles in the areas defined to be on the SABCs. If it is a receptacle in these areas, it's required to be on those circuits. If you add another receptacle from a non-SABC circuit in those areas, then exception 1 only allows it for a receptacle outlet replacing a lighting outlet required in 210.70, as allowed by exception 1 of that section.

Where the switch goes is the outlet.

According to a forum poll, 75% of people around here disagree with you.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?p=539713#post539713

I understood that. Thats why I mentioned 210.52(B)(2) Exceptions 1+2. Read them if you have the book. It mentions RECEPTACLES.....for clocks or gas fired equipment. Definition of Receptacle-----> A receptacle is a contact device installed at the outlet for the connection of an attachment plug. So if they are allowing a receptacle fed from the SABC for a clock or gas fired equipment then thats it. The outlets are intended for small appliances on the countertop. Not undercounter lighting, that transformer is not permitted by 210.52(B)(2). IMHO. :smile:

The SABC receptacles are required (by 210.52(B)(1) & (2)) to serve all wall and counter spaces in those areas and nothing else. Exceptions 1 & 2 to 210.52(B)(2) are examples of receptacles not in wall or counter space. They are not available for wall use, they are hidden by either a range or a clock, and so would violate (B)(2) if not allowed by the exceptions.

I recognize that what's throwing a wrench into the works is that once a light is plugged into that countertop receptacle outlet then it suddenly can be called a "lighting outlet" - but a basic rule of sanity is that the end user cannot create a code violation by plugging in an appliance. Otherwise, we'd never be able to leave the house; we'd have to walk around making sure people didn't use blow dryers on their 15A circuits, etc.

If someone's really bored, there was a thread about this topic in the past, I didn't check to see what the verdict was that time, this morning.

 

[frizbeedog]

First:

Seriously, buddy, you're killing me. Once or twice, it was mildly amusing, now it's just getting old. :roll:

You're right. :smile:

 

[iwire]

I recognize that what's throwing a wrench into the works is that once a light is plugged into that countertop receptacle outlet then it suddenly can be called a "lighting outlet" -

George I really do not see that, a receptacle remains a receptacle no mater what is plugged in.

 

[George Stolz]

Wait a sec, you're right:

Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.

The definition rules out cord-and-plug-connection, I forgot about that.

 

[iwire]

Wait a sec, you're right:


The definition rules out cord-and-plug-connection, I forgot about that.

:smile:

I was also thinking of the way exception 1 to 210.70(A)(1) is worded. :smile:

It does not say the switched receptacle becomes a lighting outlet it says a switched receptacle may be used instead of a lighting outlet.

 

[quogueelectric]

Go to article 100

Go to article 100

First:
According to a forum poll, 75% of people around here disagree with you.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?p=539713#post539713

First of all this old post has nothing to do with the discusion at hand. I was discussing outlets in a kitchen. This thread is about a switch that controls a receptacle outside a bedroom. The Definition of an outlet is clear I do not care if 75% cannot understand the definition. Keep reading OUTLET and UTILIZATION EQUIPMENT until you understand case closed.

 

[bikeindy]

Someone said something about beating something after it was dead. It is threads like this which make me want to beat some "electricians" till they are dead. I wouldn't really do it just makes me feel that way.

 

[George Stolz]

Quoque, your statement that I quoted made it clear (to me at least) that you considered a switch an outlet. I don't see what would make it different if we are standing in a bedroom or a kitchen discussing it.

Keep reading OUTLET and UTILIZATION EQUIPMENT until you understand case closed.

IMO, if you believe a switch is an outlet, then you do not understand the definitions in Article 100. Right back at ya.

I'd suggest reading through that "unrelated" old thread to see why 75% of people on the forum at the time disagreed with your opinion.

 

[electricmanscott]

Someone said something about beating something after it was dead. It is threads like this which make me want to beat some "electricians" till they are dead. I wouldn't really do it just makes me feel that way.

Huh. This man is sick! Ban Him!! :wink:



Very true however.

The kicker is that in a few months someone will bring this up again and it will start all over. Fun stuff.

 

[Mike03a3]

Help's to see your toes. :smile:

Losing 30 pounds would help me see my toes.

 

[M. D.]

:smile:

I was also thinking of the way exception 1 to 210.70(A)(1) is worded. :smile:

It does not say the switched receptacle becomes a lighting outlet it says a switched receptacle may be used instead of a lighting outlet.

Yeah and since it is not being used instead of a lighting outlet it is simply a receptacle outlet with an additional disconnect on the SABC

 

[lpelectric]

210.70(A)(1)Exception #1 clearly prohibits switched receptacles in kitchens and bathrooms.
210.52(B)(2) and its' exceptions clearly states what is permitted and what is not permitted on the SABC's. :smile:

 

[lpelectric]

Why has this post grown to 59 posts? :-? :roll: :grin:

Here was the question



The answer is no.

The home owner can switch every outlet in the home from the master bedroom if they wanted to.

210.70(A)(1)exc 1 says it is a violation. :smile:

 

[M. D.]

210.70(A)(1)exc 1 says it is a violation. :smile:

only if it it is lieu of a lighting outlet, which if my memory serves,. it isn't
It does not prohibit a receptacle being switched in those two rooms

in lieu of

Definition

Instead of, in place of.

 

[lpelectric]

only if it it is lieu of a lighting outlet, which if my memory serves,. it isn't
It does not prohibit a receptacle being switched in those two rooms

At 210.70(A)(1) Exception no. 1, the exception refers to switched receptacles being permitted in lieu of lighting outlets in all the rooms of a dwelling except kitchens and bathrooms. This thread is discussing whether switched receptacles are permitted in a kitchen. The answer is a resounding "NO" per NEC. :smile:

 

[M. D.]

At 210.70(A)(1) Exception no. 1, the exception refers to switched receptacles being permitted in lieu of lighting outlets in all the rooms of a dwelling except kitchens and bathrooms. This thread is discussing whether switched receptacles are permitted in a kitchen. The answer is a resounding "NO" per NEC. :smile:

It says that a switched receptacle can not be used instead of a lighting outlet ,...not that they are banned outright.

If you have a lighting outlet you are free to install a switch on any or all the receptacles

 

[lpelectric]

It says that a switched receptacle can not be used instead of a lighting outlet ,...not that they are banned outright.

If you have a lighting outlet you are free to install a switch on any or all the receptacles

Would you agree that the word "other" in the exception is a word intended to "exclude" an action or condition?

 

[iwire]

This thread is discussing whether switched receptacles are permitted in a kitchen. The answer is a resounding "NO" per NEC. :smile:

Please cite an NEC section that prohibits switching any receptacles in any room of any dwelling unit.

I could intall a bank of switches next to the bed that turn off every circuit in the home, there is no rule aginst that.

Let me try again..:roll:


Fact 1

The NEC DOES not prohibit switching any or all receptacles in the home.

Fact 2

The NEC does allow a switched receptacle in place of a lighting outlet in some rooms.

Fact 3

The kitchen is not one of those rooms.

Conclusion

The kitchen must always have a switched lighting outlet for the mounting of a Luminaire.

Beyond that you can switch or not switch the kitchen receptacles how ever you want.

It is that simple.

 

[stickboy1375]

My question really could have been answered in 1 or 2 posts max, but I guess we just like to kill it good... :grin:

 

[lpelectric]

Please cite an NEC section that prohibits switching any receptacles in any room of any dwelling unit.

I could intall a bank of switches next to the bed that turn off every circuit in the home, there is no rule aginst that.

Let me try again..:roll:


Fact 1

The NEC DOES not prohibit switching any or all receptacles in the home.

Fact 2

The NEC does allow a switched receptacle in place of a lighting outlet in some rooms.

Fact 3

The kitchen is not one of those rooms.

Conclusion

The kitchen must always have a switched lighting outlet for the mounting of a Luminaire.

Beyond that you can switch or not switch the kitchen receptacles how ever you want.

It is that simple.

In a bathroom or a kitchen a receptacle is not permitted to be controlled by a switch. It doesn't matter where the switch is located in the house or over at uncle Joe's. It's addressing any receptacle located in a bathroom or kitchen. It is that simple.