Knob & Tube Splices

[jeff43222]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

I think I should clarify the role of the HI in this case.

In order to sell a house in the city, a seller must first hire a private home inspector, licensed by the city, to inspect the property and file a report with the Truth-In-Housing division. A copy of this report must be available anytime a potential buyer looks at a house. Anything in the report listed as a "required repair" must either be fixed by the seller before closing, or the buyer must sign an acknowledgement of responsibility and get the repairs done within 60 days after closing.

The reason I wound up talking to the HI was that as I was discussing the situation with the homeowner, she got the HI on the phone and handed it over to me. His position was that the newly taped splices needed to be in j-boxes. I still don't know if this is really required. I couldn't find anything in the code that addresses this kind of situation. I'm wondering if the city inspections department has issued an "opinion" on the matter that calls for j-boxes in these cases, or if the HI misunderstands when j-boxes are required.

I do find it odd that the splices were where they were. It almost looked like someone cut several wires, then changed their mind and put them back together the way they were.

Here's what I found from poking around on the city's Web page. It's the official "Evaluator Guidelines" that HIs are supposed to use:

"Wiring that is spliced must be in a junction box, if not mark as ?RR? [Required Repair].(Permit is needed to install a junction box). NOTE: Some knob & tube wiring may be properly spliced outside a junction box."

Doesn't really clear up which K&T is exempt. My guess is that their opinion is that old-style splices done with solder are OK outside j-boxes, but anything new must be boxed.

[ August 20, 2005, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

posted August 20, 2005 08:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Jim, I just think your jealous of these HI's and their knowledge.

Roger "

Not of there knowledge as that seems to be lacking.But of the easy money they seem to get ,yes

What i am seeing here is that HI does not mean the same to all of us depending on where we live.

To be forced to hire a HI to sell my house seems wrong.Sounds like Hitler is back.Should be your right to offer anything you own for sale and up to buyer if he wants a HI.Then see if a sale price can be reached between them.Nice buisness to be in if every house offered for sale must hire a HI.Here it is the buyers option and seller is not required to fix or adjust the price.

This tread sure has took a sharp turn from where it was directed

 

[iwire]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Not of there knowledge as that seems to be lacking.

What are you basing that assumption on?

A few horror stories you have heard?

Go to some HI forums and check them out.

Just like electricians their knowledge runs from little to a lot.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Jeff,could you post or send that link or web address.Migh be helpfull to know just what they expect.And to say requires junction boxes then i guess all K&T systems fail.Perhaps the splice was simply just undone to trouble shoot and put back after fixed.Solder was required back then so i would think wire nuts might be a violation if repair was made this way.Notice i said MIGHT

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Here's the link.

The relevant passage is under 19.D on page 36.

 

[iwire]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Never mind

[ August 20, 2005, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Bob,true ,all we hear here is of the bad ones.And we hear of many mad electricians too.If what we see here is only a few percent then i have mis judged them.But as has been pointed out in Florida it takes no test to be one.But then there are some places that had no test to be an electrician years ago too.And still many places that care less if permits or licenses are used.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Jeff, did this guy read 19.d ? If he had why did he write this up ?

Seems like a well thought out guide

[ August 20, 2005, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

I think the crucial word here is "some." It doesn't say which K&T splices are OK outside j-boxes, and which aren't. That wording is repeated in several other sections throughout the document listing places where K&T wiring might be found. Clear as mud.

My guess is the "some" that's OK is original splices, and the stuff that isn't are the non-original splices. The HI told me he only wanted the non-original stuff put in j-boxes.

[ August 20, 2005, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Jeff, did this guy read 19.d ? If he had why did he write this up ?

Seems like a well thought out guide

Jim, that is the section Jeff is asking about.

I think the question is about the word "some"

NOTE: Some knob & tube wiring may be properly spliced outside a junction box.

That implies some K&T must be spliced in a J-Box.

So which K & T splices must be in a j-box, it's not clear to me, is it clear to you?

 

[iwire]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Sorry to speak for you Jeff, I was typing while you where posting.

Also sorry for taking this thread off track on you.

I guess you will have to call the AHJ in your area to get a decision on this.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Very clear to me.But to someone who is not familar with how that sytem was wired and codes at the time they would not know.It said SOME.Would it not be his job to find out what ones are and not ? So rather than do his homework he tags it.Is it too much to expect for him to research areas he does not know ? Had this guy never seen a K&T system before ? Here we are again stuck with an untrained inspector.Maybe your right i do expect a lot out of others.But if i paid this man to look at electrical should he not know about differant wiring methods?

If you were buying a used car and are not a mechanic so took it to a mechanic would you want the guy to know what he is looking at or just tell you yea it's an engine and its running

 

[iwire]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Very clear to me.

It is?

Please tell us the answer.

 

[iwire]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Originally posted by jimwalker:
If you were buying a used car and are not a mechanic so took it to a mechanic would you want the guy to know what he is looking at or just tell you yea it's an engine and its running

Jim of course I want someone who is competent.

This is why when your choosing a doctor, mechanic, electrician or HI you should ask for references.

If you simply pick any of these randomly from the phone book you do not know what you will get.

Have you heard the phrase Caveat empor?

That is buyer beware, and that applies as much to buying a home as choosing an electrician or HI.

Again I ask what is your solution to the problem?

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

The splices were tapped to go to another area are fine.They did not use junction boxes as we do today.They did require solder and tape back in the 20,s so they still do.All outlets ,switch,lights.receptacles had to be in a box.They had sleving on the wires were they entered the box.I for one have seen many old K&T systems and saved a few of the tubes and knobs in my collection.Was a very time consuming install back then.Very doughtfull any of them still being used today would not have brittle insulation and need replaced.If untouched probably still safe.I would suggest you look this system over close.If you do solder and tape then repair was made correctly but now your name goes on this system.Perhaps try and meet an inspector at the job and if he finds it safe do repair with permit only to cover you a$$

http://www.grassroots.ca/homeowner_help_articles/knob_tube_wiring_v2.html

[ August 20, 2005, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Seems very reasonable Jim.

K&T is very common here in the Northeast, my own 1925 house has some K & T still in use running a few light fixtures. I need someone familiar with snaking in an old home.

The receptacles have been removed from the K & T.

 

[roger]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Jim, there is no reason to meet an inspector on the job, a licensed electrician (take note I said licensed electrician) could evaluate the wiring and produce his own report.

If you go to a Doctor and he makes a preliminary diagnosis, but he then refers you to a specialist for a better diagnosis, yet charges for his time and office services, do you think he has cheated you?

Roger

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

K&T is also very common in these parts. Most of the houses I work in are pre-WWII, and my own 1922 bungalow is still partially wired with K&T. I'll get around to replacing the rest of it eventually.

Although I am indeed a licensed electrician, I'm not the one who is going to be filing the truth-in-housing report with the city. Since the K&T was installed way before my time (approximately around the time my grandparents were little kids), I really don't know what the rules were back then except that I've heard that soldering was the way it was done. So I suppose to be completely legit, I should open up all the splices and solder them, but I'll admit that I'm not all that experienced at soldering. Then again, I do still have my soldering kit in the shop...

What's your opinion on that idea? I'm thinking that if I install metal j-boxes, that will introduce a new problem, namely that the metal boxes would have to be grounded per 314.4, and I'd rather not have to run a bunch of new wire around the basement (and I'm sure the homeowner doesn't want to pay me to do that). Also, since the K&T conductors are run as single conductors, there's the additional issue of inductance on the metal boxes.

Since soldering was how splicing was done in the old days, seems to me that it would be a legitimate way to repair these new splices.

 

[roger]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Jeff, if you do decide to go with the boxes, use nonmetalic so the bonding is not necessary.

I personally think you will possibily create more danger to the wiring by handling it.

As far as the splices, use a listed wing nut or wire nut.

Roger

[ August 20, 2005, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Wow this thread grew fast. Bob my point was that buyers like to use a home inspction report as a bargaining tool. That annoys me a little bit. When a person wants to buy a 75 year old house and gets a 10 page report on all the "Problems" with the house they automatically think beat down the price. My veiw is what do they expect, the house is 75 years old of course there are alot of things that need updating. When I sold my last house the people tried this approach. I used the "Go pound sand" response. Maybe I am not a good negotiator. They did buy the house anyway.