Knob & Tube Splices

[jimwalker]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Hey guys,try something,take his photo and saved to desktop then open it and magnify it a few times.This looks like old romex and some duct tape.
The wire from the knob going down is one wire from a piece of romex.exsplains the missing tube.Yes junction box needed and not sure about wire leaving know going to the left,wire on right looks like some gray duct tape.Yikes what a mess

[ August 20, 2005, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

I'm supposed to show up on Monday morning at 8:00 to put in the j-boxes, but I get the feeling from you guys that I should call them tomorrow and tell them it's either going to be a complete replacement of the K&T, or wish them luck finding someone else to do the job. Incidentally, there's K&T all over the basement, but I don't know where it connects with the system. The panel has all NM coming out of it, and I couldn't find any place in the basement where K&T was connected to anything else. It must connect upstairs somewhere.

This is not a job I want (or need), anyway. Not sure why I said yes. Probably fell victim to the desperate pleas of the HO and her housemates (I need to use some of Scott's patented "Pound Sand" approach ). When I quoted my hourly rate ($85, which is on the low end of the local spectrum), one of the housemates let out a moan/wail similar to what one might expect from someone who just heard that their child had been killed.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Hey guys,try something,take his photo and saved to desktop then open it and magnify it a few times.This looks like old romex and some duct tape.
The wire from the knob going down is one wire from a piece of romex.exsplains the missing tube.Yes junction box needed and not sure about wire leaving know going to the left,wire on right looks like some gray duct tape.Yikes what a mess

I can see why it looks like that, but it's definitely not old Romex or duct tape. The reason it's somewhat shiny in some places is that the HO did some spray painting nearby.

All the wires were K&T.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

OK so are you saying all of this wiring is 1 conductor ? If so its missing all the tubes.As to the other t &t i would get out my hot stick and see if its being used.While i can feel for the sellers its only fair that the buyers know what they getting here.Thinking this place needs some serious work done to make it safe.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Whoa no way would i touch that mess.Thats a lot more than just solder and tape job.Not thinking that mess ever met any codes anytime.Run dont walk from this job.Its a fire waiting to happen.
Where is the TUBES going thru that wood ? That is not at all what a k&t job should look like :roll: :roll: :roll:

Jim I must agree with you.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Yep -- all the wires you see there are single wire conductors. I did check them with my hot stick, and I was able to determine that some of the wires are indeed hot. At least one feeds a receptacle nearby that had a working fridge plugged into it. Most of the wires disappear into the ceiling heading upstairs, so I have no idea where they go.

I'm going to call them tomorrow and decline the job.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

It looks like all of the exposed wires except the one on the knob are run in "loom". That is not the usual installation. The loom was normally used only at boxes and sometimes in the drops down the walls. The exposed wire in the basement would normally be on knobs with tubes through the joists.
Don

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Can knobs and tubes even be bought anymore.Without them how would one fix this mess.Or is that part of why it is this way now

 

[dirkhats]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

I've repaired/replaced alot of K&T over the years. I carry a soldering iron & solder on my truck. Friction tape is not as easy to find as it used to be, but it is still out there. If I was working for the seller, usually the minimum work takes place so I would install a non-metallic box where the K&T becomes exposed and install NM cable to replace the K&T until it is no longer exposed or until we reach where it is properly installed. If the K&T where it goes into a closed to view area is improperly installed, I would not install my junction box there as I stated earlier, I would trace the wires and continue to replace until it was no longer a present hazard. If I was working for the seller, I would try to encourage to replace as much as possible if not all of it. Where I transition into NM Cable, I use non-metallic Junction boxes. I feel metal boxes are a greater hazard due to the brittle insulation. Sometimes I will install small shrink sleeves on extreme brittle cases.

Separate #12 or #14 ground wires can be run for non-grounded systems, either to the bonded water pipe system, or to the panel.

In our city, there are two locations I am aware of where salvaged K&T parts are still available.

Where K&T in properly installed, I think it is a very safe system. The wire never touched flammable parts of the house. If it overheats, it simply burns itself through. (I've seen this done where the penny has been behind the fuse!) If it has been altered, it is almost always done incorrect and becomes unsafe.

Whew...

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

I would also encourage the owner to replace as much of the K&T as possible . I would not do a half *** repair. I would give the owner an estimate on the cost and remind her she does not have to fix it . The buyer does not have to buy it or she can reduce the price.

As far as "red tagging" and" pulling a meter" that is not your call
Here in the "Great Commonwealth of Massachusetts" an inspector of good reputation told me it must be a life threatening situation. Then he reports it and to the electric Co. and I think building inspector . Point is , it is not something that is done often and this action is not taken lightly when it is done. Not sure this would rise to the occaision.

I heard of an electrician round here who pulled a meter looking for his money,....He ended up in a heap of $#!%

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices



[ August 21, 2005, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: marc deschenes ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

I know its hard to pull a meter but i was under the impression that if condemmed the ahj could demand electric turned off.

Do we not all see this picture as a serious fire hazard ?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Jeff,

When I examined your photo, the thing that jumped out at me was the edges of the drywall.

At some point, this was concealed K&T. This explains, to me at least, why the long runs of hanging loom (tube) covered conductor are present. I suggest that these were fished conductors.

The one porcelain knob in your picture was almost certainly installed prior to the drywall. The use of loom instead of a porcelain tube where the conductor comes through the joist to the knob is not common, but the loom is still a tube, and, I believe, satisfies the historical K&T requirements.

Splicing the conductor of one loom was done on an as needed basis.

The break in the loom where the splice was done was simply taped over. That looks exactly like what was done here.

In my experience, working in your same jurisdiction, when fished K&T is exposed, the only real issue to deal with is support. The loom covered conductor is simply stapled to the joist.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Good morning Jim,

I missed your post while I was composing.

I, for one, don't see this as a fire hazard.

There is another bit of local history that is included with this installation. Since Jeff referenced the Minneapolis T.I.S.H. (truth in sale of housing) document, that means to me that the installation shown in his photo is there.

Minneapolis has required, in the last half of the 1900's, that exposed K&T in basements be cut back to a maximum exposed length of 18" when the service is upgraded.

Jeff has alluded to the service upgrade having occured since 1975 by his earlier descriptions. 1975 was the year that Minneapolis permitted NM to be installed, for the first time, in lieu of a metal covered wiring method (EMT, AC, etc.). The fact that the lengths of K&T shown in the photo still exists says to me that the ceiling was still intact at the time of the service upgrade.

Nothing, in my opinion, requires the replacement of the existing installation shown in the photo.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Jim,

Do we not all see this picture as a serious fire hazard ?

No. I don't see this as any more of a fire hazard than NM cable. Actually I see it as somewhat less of a hazard because of the separation of conductors, and the heat will not build up as fast when subjected to overcurrent conditions.
Don

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Originally posted by dillon3c:

*As I remeber:
The house that I grew up in,built new in early 1960's,had wiring looking somewhat simular to the wiring, I'm seeing in this photo.

*Black Cloth outer covering type, for the branch-circuit romex.
-And
*Silver Cloth outer covering for the larger sizes, of the feeder cable assemblies.

Had to back track over this statement of mine.In my discription of old romex, in what I had recalled and seen as kid. (This is unrealted to jeff's description,in his post)..just a memory check.

http://www.codecheck.com/wiring_history.htm#nmnoground

subjects from: Chris Lewis & Don Labrenz/Dave Shapiro

[ August 21, 2005, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]