Knob & Tube Splices

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Re: Knob & Tube Splices

314.3 Nonmetallic Boxes. Nonmetallic boxes shall be permitted only with open wiring on insulators, concealed knob-and-tube wiring, cable wiring methods, with entirely nonmetallic sheaths, flexible cords, and nonmetallic raceways.

Looks like I can't use a nonmetallic box with open K&T wiring.

Personally, I think the existing new splices are fine. They look like they were twisted nice and tight and were wrapped up with a lot of tape, but I think the HI might have ordered the j-boxes to cover himself.

[ August 20, 2005, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
 
Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Jeff, I went back and read your first post, I was asuming an attic. I agree that the NM boxes can't be used in this unfinished basement.

Roger
 
Re: Knob & Tube Splices

What is open wiring on insulators ??
Tell the owner they do not have to change anything and have no work , or repair and have them increase the price a little or replace the wiring and have them increase the price a lot more. If you repair I think listed wire nuts would be o.k. ,but then again soldering can be fun too ! just make sure the connection does not depend on the solder !!
 
Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Lets keep in mind they did not have plastic box's back in the 20's.If you do try to install a box you will need sleeving,and to be honest i think you will do more damage than good to the wires.The idea behind solder was to make a good electrical connection.Are most of the slices soldered ? As to using red wire nuts i think that was not the aproved way then so might not be ok now.
As to saying get the inspector out there.While it's not a normal way to go in this case it might be wise.Has nothing to do with you knowing how.Why spend hours repairing to have the inspector say he won't sign off because the wires have bare spots or he doesnt like whatever.Most will stop and render there opinion.Your dealing with 80 year old wire.Other than changing devices i would be carefull with this job.My end of K&T has been remove them and rewire in romex.Wish you could post a picture of a few of them.

A lot of older homes are being forced to get rid of the K&T if they want insurance.Insurance companies are tired of slum lords that will rent old houses till they burn to ground and then they walk away with more than they paid in premums for last 20 years
 
Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Believe it or not, I actually did snap a picture of one of the splices in question. I'll post it later in the day.

I'm still not sure how to proceed with this and still make it compliant. Using a nonmetallic box seems to be out, and I'm not sure about the soldering idea. Using metal boxes might be OK, but then I'll have to bond them. The only time I've run individual grounding/bonding conductors is when I've used #6 or #4 to ground a service to ground rods or water pipes. Can I just run #12 THHN to each new box from the panel? Does it have to be in conduit of some sort? Since I've always grounded/bonded my boxes with the ground wire I run with the current-carrying conductors, I'm not all that familiar with the rules about running separate grounds.

I'm wondering why I agreed to this job in the first place. It's turning into a major PITA.
 
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I cant see any reason to put the box in.Open splice is permitted.Twist it like the rest were done and then solder and tape.If permit required pull it.If you prefer to use a box i dought an inspector would not rather see it in plastic.If you add a box your going beyond a repair.To me a repair means replace what was there not change it.Assuming this was inspected at time of install then simply put it back as it was before.Ask the HI to tell you were it says this splice needs a box.It said some so now he needs to back off or show his case.I have had a few jobs like this that you question why you took it in the first place.
 
Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Wow! this is the fastest growing topic I've seen in a while. I have done lots of K&T repairs and my understanding of the rules that most apply are that new splices are in boxes, as the old ones are legal as installed. Bare wires can be abated as hazards without dealing with K&T rules.

One thing i would like to point out about K&T and repairing some one else's repair is that there is no way of knowing what existed before. There may have been an entire circuit that failed and was tapped onto another. It is fairly easy to camoflage the tell-tale signs once the knobs and tubes and loom are all removed. it could also be the same with a neutral and that could now be overloaded. But if you re-repair it, you have "bought" it. So beware of other's repairs without a good circuit survey.

Some states are different about HI's. The ones I have seen in California are electrically challenged, can be sued for failure to note defects and need good (errors and omissions) insurance to cover themselves. To survive as a HI here you need to be friendly with the realtors that are selling the house, and not overly dramatize the defects. it seems to be more of a business than a trade.

paul
 
Re: Knob & Tube Splices

I think in California there is some definite cohoots going on with HI's and real estate people. My girl friend used to be a real estate agent and still works in the industry. Those people have some serious self importance issues out here. I don't know how relevant that is but it might matter some.
 
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That sort of thing goes on everywhere.If buyer says he wants a HI im sure there are ways they can throw buisness in the direction of Scholts.Perhaps his buisness cards are laying in view.They surely wont help you find one with 20 20 eye sight.And so what if the pizza guy delivers a free pizza from Scolts home inspections inc.
 
Re: Knob & Tube Splices

As promised, here's a picture of one of the splices in question. It's a little to the right of dead-center of the picture.

knob-n-tube.jpg
 
Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Whoa no way would i touch that mess.Thats a lot more than just solder and tape job.Not thinking that mess ever met any codes anytime.Run dont walk from this job.Its a fire waiting to happen.
Where is the TUBES going thru that wood ? That is not at all what a k&t job should look like :roll: :roll: :roll:

[ August 20, 2005, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Hi, it's me, the home inspector again.

Jeff, if I saw the wiring in your picture in a house I was inspecting, I wouldn't be suggesting splice repairs and boxes. I'd recommend rewiring that circuit and any others that look like it.

Not only are the porcelain tubes missing, the wires are run too close together and there are missing knobs as well. But the real problem is that the hands that did this work almost certainly created problems elsewhere in the circuit, perhaps in places that are presently concealed.

I'd stick to my guns on this one. And no realtor, home seller, or even EC would be able to talk me out of that recommendation.

On a side note, I was taught that a properly made up wire nut splice is superior to a soldered western union splice (or telegraph splice) for two reasons. First, the wire nut exerts pressure on the splice, which is more important to a low resistance connection than surface area, particularly since the lead and tin in solder are relatively poor conductors. Second, the copper conductors in old K&T wires were coated with tin to protect the copper from reacting with the old-style rubber insulation. With a western union splice, there's practically no copper-to-copper contact. Whereas with a wire nut, the spring on the nut cuts through the tin to make some contact with the copper.

If you have to make repairs to an existing K&T system, wire nut connections are superior method.

- Jim K
 
Re: Knob & Tube Splices

That's not a repair. That's an alteration that wasn't done to code. I agree with Jim K, you have to wonder what else there is. I wouldn't expect whatever's under that tape to be what I'd consider a good splice either. And everything's pulled tight like the conductors were too short to splice or terminate without having to wrestle with them. It's hard to make good connections like that.
 
Re: Knob & Tube Splices

I agree with the others who say that that is not just a splice. it looks as if the only original hole is the one the knobed wire is on. in fact, the other wires do not look like original. All K&T holes were tubed, were much larger, even if the tube is missing, and all the other holes are drilled to small, look too new. This is an alteration and needed to be inspected, if allowable at all.

paul
 
Re: Knob & Tube Splices

It took a 1/2 inch hole for a tube if if not mistaken.Not at all sure what this mess is.Please dont risk your license over this job.There probably is lots more you havn't even seen.Wires can not lay on wood.

Actually if an inspector seen this mess i think he would have building condemmed and meter pulled

[ August 20, 2005, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Originally posted by apauling:
[QB] I agree with the others who say that that is not just a splice. it looks as if the only original hole is the one the knobed wire is on. in fact, the other wires do not look like original.
*This installation in picture,in my opinion is a mixture of wiring methods,from differant dates of time ..

*As I remeber:
The house that I grew up in,built new in early 1960's,had wiring looking somewhat simular to the wiring, I'm seeing in this photo.

*Black Cloth outer covering type, for the branch-circuit romex.
-And
*Silver Cloth outer covering for the larger sizes, of the feeder cable assemblies.

Are you sure we are looking at 100% all, "Knob & Tube" wiring method here in this photo?

Added: I'm not refering to that metal sheath (BX)or (MC) looking assembly..

Edited: I could be wrong..

[ August 20, 2005, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
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Re: Knob & Tube Splices

My approach to this situation is do what it takes to replace this mess or do nothing at all and walk away. No middle ground for me.
 
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